A standard anvil base?

[JNewman]

I have to agree with Tim everyone needs at least 2 of those stake plates that Blacksmith Depot sells.

Of course I am biased because they are my product that I sell to Blacksmith Depot :)

[monstermetal]

I have to agree with Tim everyone needs at least 2 of those stake plates that Blacksmith Depot sells.

Of course I am biased because they are my product that I sell to Blacksmith Depot

In that case I think you should say "any blacksmith who doesn't have at least 4 stake plates and a dozen stakes obviously has no interest in being a REAL smith"


Red Green....

I don't think everyone hates you or your idea.. People are critical... Its many's nature to point out "flaws" in a design.

The Truth according to Larry the Blacksmith
#1) Just because its your great idea doesn't mean its not a Dumb Idea
#2) Just because someone tells you its a great idea does not mean its not a Dumb idea
#3) Just because you believe in your idea does not mean its not a dumb idea
#4) Rules one through 3 mean nothing, whats important is you do what you want when you want for the reasons you believe in and let the chips fall where they may.....
#5) One of life's greatest joys is proving other people wrong

Point is dont let others dictate your actions.... Whats important is you do something... It would be a huge shame if you let others get under your skin and you just said "to heck with it" and didn't move forward... For no other reason than you robbed yourself of the opportunity to explore an idea and learn its lessons.... You may find after working at it for years that it was not a worthwhile effort, but I guarantee you wont regret the experience and insight it provides

My guess is very few people get to old age and reflect back and think " I wish I would have been more careful, took fewer risks and listened to all those people who told me I had a dumb idea"

[ThomasPowers]

R-G; I think that what you have *is* a system, a system that allows you to start off small and build/acquire more tools to use with it as you find you need them.

I'm not happy with dovetails in the smithy as they are more expensive to make and maintain.---If we can dent and chip our anvils how much more fragile is a dovetail? (they sure look snazzy though I've seen an anvil that had a broken horn dovetailed back in place and was impressed by the work the owner had put into it.)

Now for a weird idea: could you partner with a VoTech machining class to build these things with sets of tooling that meet the class requirements for projects: Swages, cones, the anvil and horn piece, etc. The more of these things out there the more demand and supply of tooling for them will occur.

If you ever get a prototype built; please remember to sign and date it so 100 years from now some smith is not left scratching his head wondering

[Red Green]

Hey Mr. Newman,

Nice, do you do your own casting? Clean, compact design, looks plenty beefy enough even for those tall hardy hole snappers. Is it a new design, I don’t remember seeing it before? But then I have no stake tools so I may have slept right through that page. There are a lot of those old stake tools out in the world, I’ll bet you sell a few of those plates, especially with the price of the old plexto plate holders! I didn’t know you were a tool maker, but then I’m new around here. I usually don’t get involved with people, I figure why make folks mad if you can just hide. Now that I got old an stuff I figured heck I just as soon get shot as die of cancer or such. So here I am stealing anvils. I have no idea what it costs to cast and refine a tool the size of say the round horn part of the anvil top. Could you give a wild guess for a retail price? I’d offer dimensions for the holder but that as of yet has not been agreed upon. Do you make swage blocks or swage tops? Perhaps I should ask if you have a web page, so hey do you have a web page?

[Red Green]

Hello Mr. Monster,

I not sure if I should talk to anybody named Monster, I make people mad, it might not be smart to rile up a monster. I have a personality fault I’m unable to ‘give up’ don’t know how. I can admit I’m wrong, turn around and start over, but I have to be shown why. I am a firm believer in logic, reason and the limits of physics. Use one of those on me and you have a powerful lever. Can’t be done, costs too much, it’s never been done before doesn’t mean a pittance to me. The biggest problem is that most people don’t still do not understand what I’m attempting to accomplish. Many think I’m trying to build the example I have shown, not understanding I want tools for them. I keep telling them lets design a holder that the tool makers will build for, they keep telling me to build my example, why? It’s useless without a large enough consensus of smiths, we need a “standard” a rallying point that’s what this is about. Ask Grant or Mr. Newman if they would be willing to make tools if say 50 smiths said they would buy them. That’s what I want tools, quality, well designed tools that don’t limit what you do with them. The holder is just to get the tools made. I’ll be the first to admit I have terrible language skills, people rarely understand what I’m trying to communicate to them. So I keep repeating myself till somebody tell someone screams shut-up or punches me in the face. So hey, Mr. Monster would you put that hammer down,…. please?

[Red Green]

Good day Mr. Powers,

Oh I see, yes your correct I can see the ‘system’ you speak of, and it would be cool to have a bunch of tools for a holder, once it’s designed. Dovetails are great they hold stuff tight but they are hard to make. I don’t know what VoTech is but I’ll look into that just as soon as a consensus for the design is reached. There is no use in anyone spending time and money on making tools for a holder that has not been designed yet, unless they just want to build it and don’t care if it will set on the holder or not. As for me signing and dating a prototype, I will probably not be the one who does that. I suppose after a holder has been designed I could drive down to Houston to get steel and get whatever it will require done, but I don’t see me as the one to get the first one built, it would just take me too long to get my poor, lazy….., you get the picture.

[Mainely,Bob]

Red,

Allow me to suggest an alternate approach.
How about asking folks to post the tooling that they have made and find both durable and useful.Once you get a handle on what folks are really looking for and couldn`t find at an affordable price then you may be able to devise a way to standardize the mounting and build a base to go with that mounting.
Most of the tooling we make for ourselves starts with scrap metal so this approach may be a more bottom up way to look at things rather than a top down(the way I`m seeing your approach)of starting with a heavy,rather expensive base to fit undetermined(as yet)tooling.

Just a suggestion to help others get behind your project.I don`t know anyone who doesn`t like to show off their home made toys.

[Timothy Miller]

I think he is more content to argue on the internet than get his hands dirty actually making something.

[Red Green]

Come on guys this not about me. I’m just this guy, I can’t wag the dog. Do you not understand there is nothing to make!!!!!!! I cannot bring something into existence that has not been devised. The tools smiths usually make fit a hardy or vice the tools I am trying to get made should fit them too, why is that so hard to understand? I am not trying to take anything away I’m trying to add to the possibilities. I keep trying to get an agreement on how a standard should be designed, and you keep telling me to build it. Build what?

[jeremy k]

The only "standard" is moving metal were you want it. From there it's a free for all as far as tooling and such as everyone has different means of doing things and different capabilities/supplies. - Ask 10 blacksmiths how to do something - get 11 different answers with the same outcome. - JK

[Red Green]

Jeremy are you trying to tell me that blacksmiths cannot come to an agreement because they do different work?

[Mainely,Bob]

Red,

To start the ball rolling,look at the input for the tooling Grant just went thru proofing.There`s an incredible amount of good info there plus the fact that there has already been a prototype made and Grant found it cost prohibitive to produce.
The way I see it,your enthusiasm is great,why not take the ball Grant started rolling and run with it.Put your drive toward finding a way to take that prototype and build on it.Find a way to produce it more cheaply or take the tools folks said they would like to see incorporated and find a more cost effective way to fix them to a cheaper base,any base.Seems to me the base is secondary to finding a way to secure the tooling.
Input has already been given that says at least some people would like to see a common means of securing dies in both a free standing base and power hammers.Work with some of the power hammer Guru`s on improving and standardizing the fixing of the dies used in their machines and then incorporate it into the proposed base.A base is nothing more than an appropriate mass that fits the bottom of the tooling times how ever many stations are needed or wanted.
Look at some of the complaints folks have with top tooling.Find cheap a way to keep top tooling from jumping around when in use other than a bolt or wedge under the heel of an anvil.Talk to some engineers or inventors and ask them if they have an idea that`s better than a loose fit in a square tapered hole.
In short,look to either provide people with something they can`t get in an anvil or solve some of the problems that come with working with an anvil.If you can do that then you may be able to get others interested too.
My feeling is that others already went down this road with Grant.They put alot of thought and input into this already.You may want to research some of the things I`ve suggested as it is my feeling(and ONLY my feeling)that if this topic hasn`t run it`s course already it soon will and then you won`t get help all you`ll get is static.
This is your baby Red.As with Grant we already told you the baby`s cute and maybe tickled it alittle to see what it would do.Let it rest alittle,and while it`s resting do some leg work.When you wake it up from it`s nap then hopefully you`ll have something new to dazzle us with and we`ll all be enthusiastic again.
I`ve given you all I can think of,I`m worn out.

[monstermetal]

Hello Mr. Monster,

I not sure if I should talk to anybody named Monster, I make people mad, it might not be smart to rile up a monster. I have a personality fault I’m unable to ‘give up’ don’t know how. I can admit I’m wrong, turn around and start over, but I have to be shown why. I am a firm believer in logic, reason and the limits of physics. Use one of those on me and you have a powerful lever. Can’t be done, costs too much, it’s never been done before doesn’t mean a pittance to me. The biggest problem is that most people don’t still do not understand what I’m attempting to accomplish. Many think I’m trying to build the example I have shown, not understanding I want tools for them. I keep telling them lets design a holder that the tool makers will build for, they keep telling me to build my example, why? It’s useless without a large enough consensus of smiths, we need a “standard” a rallying point that’s what this is about. Ask Grant or Mr. Newman if they would be willing to make tools if say 50 smiths said they would buy them. That’s what I want tools, quality, well designed tools that don’t limit what you do with them. The holder is just to get the tools made. I’ll be the first to admit I have terrible language skills, people rarely understand what I’m trying to communicate to them. So I keep repeating myself till somebody tell someone screams shut-up or punches me in the face. So hey, Mr. Monster would you put that hammer down,…. please?

Im on your side, nothing to fear from me... Monster Make Pretty, not smash

I understand what your saying (now anyway)

[Red Green]

I don’t know the rules here, I’m sure soon I’ll get a bad enough rep. to see the end of my welcome here. I wish I could get this idea off the ground before I get banned, apparently my personality problems have caused a great deal of anger in some people. If anyone out there can see the benefit of this standard please come forward. Take the helm, let them beat me to death, but get the job done.

[ThomasPowers]

Well assuming folks that are trying to help you are out to get you and their input can thus be ignored does tend to annoy folks. At least that is how a lot of stuff came across to me reading this thread.

I haven't seen a lot of ban worthy stuff go by; but shunning might take place by some folks. But I have a high tolerance of hurly burly of the free flow of ideas on the net and tend to take a vacation when I get too riled up over something.

Now do you think you could have a prototype to show off at the Quad-State Conference? (too short a time for the ABANA conf in my opinion) Hmm with more lead time we might be able to ask SOFA to make it a display catagory at a Quad-State and get other people's ideas as well!

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Oh, come on Southshore, one does not preclude the other. I forge out a lotta stuff for an old retired guy, but I still find time to rattle a few cages around here.

(I know: "Who's this old retired guy I'm forging stuff out for"?)

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Red Green: As my Pappy used to say: "Don't keep feedin' the cow if you don't want it passing gas in your face"! Well, he worded it a little differently.

Sometimes these things just "go south" and there's no gettin em back.

Friend of mine said his doctor told him he needed to give up half his sex life. I asked him which half he was gonna give up, talkin about it, or thinking about it!

[Red Green]

Mr. Powers,
I’m sorry, I did not at any time intend to attack you in any way, I don’t know what to say, how do I ask for forgiveness when I don’t know what I’ve done? I still do not understand what I’m supposed to build a prototype of. Did I miss something?

[Red Green]

Mr. Grant
You’re right, I have polluted this thread with my blabbering and unwanted opinions so I have no one to blame but me.

[ThomasPowers]

Well I didn't say that you had attacked me; just that reading it gave me the feeling that some folks were getting trod upon for emotional rather than rational reasons. If you want to attack me feel free to call me old and fat and make fun of my ungainliness and pretentious diction---just *DON'T* make fun of my disreputable red hat---them's fight'ng words!

I view this type of thread as valuable gedanken experiments as people with different backgrounds attack common problems from a different direction.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Red, that's not quite what I meant. I just mean that at a certain point you just quit thrashing a dead horse. Oh, and quit apologizing. Just tell them to go have intimate relations with themselves.

[JNewman]

I am getting a little confused here. Red you are raising two different issues, standards and this new anvil design.

You are suggesting that there be standard tooling, this is difficult with many of the tools being used being antiques. However there does seem to be something of a standard hardy hole size being adopted of 1" for most new anvils and anvil tools. When I designed my stake plate and some cast stakes for some silversmiths a few years ago I checked a number of manufactured stakes and found no standard taper even among different tools made by the same manufacturers. At that time I decided that would make all my stakes and the stake holder 5 degrees, 2.5 per side I would love if that became the standard for all manufacturers but unfortunately I don't think that companies are going to change their tooling to match mine but there were no standards to adapt to. There are not huge volumes of tools or money being produced and these are not consumables like cars so I feel it is unlikely that there will be rigid standards adopted. I did cast the angle of the taper into the holder to help those making their own tools and for anyone who wants to make tools to fit into the plate.

Your first post showed a new style of anvil which you suggested as the start of a new standard tool holder. I have had wild ideas that I bounced off others that I have done nothing with but may use some of the input others gave for other projects. But I don't understand you suggesting that tool producers should start thinking about making tools for a base that does not exist. If you beleive that this tool is a good idea, go for it. You say you cannot afford to build one of these, if you believe in it sell that hay budden you already have that should be enough to have two of these flame cut. After you sell the second one you are on your way. If you don't believe in it why can you expect anyone else to invest their money into it. if you don't beleive in it, it's time to move on to another idea.

In answer to your question I do have a web site, the address is in my signature. My blacksmith tools for sale are not on the site yet but they are all on the Blacksmith Depot site in the USA I sell everything through them.

[Timothy Miller]

I honestly don't see any problem with the existing equipment. Other than stuff that is not set up right or people not having the experience of how to use it properly. People complain about tools moving around in a hardie hole well make them fit. Make a shim, upset the shank, or build up some weld on the shank. You want a universal to holder we have one its called a vise. I doubt any professional smith would want a thing like this. We more often than not are doing most of our work on power hammers and for that we have a universal tool holder. I asked before what is the problem with a traditional set up?

You can see various patents in the back of the book "Anvils in America" several of them for elaborate improvements on anvils. One of them is for a anvil with dovetailed in replaceable face. In the heyday of the blacksmith in America when they were making thousands of tons of anvils a year if some body could have come up with a better and cheaper modular anvil it would have sold. Especally back then when labor was cheaper and our collective knowledge of blacksmithing was far greater. Anvils were a were an absolute necessity at the time and their design the result of thousands of years ofmetalworking knowledge. On top of that there are many types of anvils, the cutlers anvil comes to mind. It had dovetails in the face to hold tools that were in constant usage. Do you think a bunch of hobbyist some of witch have limited actual forging experience are going to in a few evenings typing away on the internet do better. If you are doing this because you think its cool or fun go for it and I will stop my criticism. But if you think this is going to fundamentally change the craft well I don't know what to say. Prove me wrong build one that is so useful that I will need to buy one to stay in business.

[Red Green]

Mr. Grant
Yes, read the above post again. Do I seem overly apologetic? I may be, I’ve always regretted the damage I’ve done in dispute, and never regretted apologizing in the attempt to advert it.

[southernforge]

Are you planning to make an european anvil by casting or fabricataion?