Mark Wargo New2bs Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 If you do a google search for the specific alloy you are working, you can locate spec sheets for that type steel. It will tell you the proper forging temperature as a range, the proper quenching temperature and medium, and the correct tempering temperatures. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted January 16, 2010 Share Posted January 16, 2010 A good place to start is the Crucible Service Center site. They have spec sheets you can print and even a special section on knife making steels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefera4m Posted January 16, 2010 Share Posted January 16, 2010 Unless you have a pyrometer or other type temperature guage capable of accurately registering temperatures up to 2800 degrees F, I would recommend a MAGNET! Most forging on blades is done around a temp known as 'critical', where the steel will not attract a magnet. Some people forge hotter, some cooler, but ususally not by much. Also heat treating - normalizing and hardening are done - at 'critical/non-magnetic' temperature (soak times vary). Trying to distinguish colors without a fair amount of experience can be a challenge and what is 'bright red' to one person may look 'orange' to another. The lighting, or lack of lighting, around the forge can also affect color perception, but magnet never lie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted January 16, 2010 Share Posted January 16, 2010 On using a magnet, go to Radio Shack and get a pack of ceramic doughnut magnets. They are about $3 for 5 of them. Hang one near your forge from a thin copper wire, like from inside a phone or network cable. Don't actually touch the magnet, but instead watch the magnet as a pendulum, it will swing to the steel when magnetic, and swing naturally when non-magnetic. Non-magnetic is hotter on the way up than the way down, so look as some phase charts and understand what is happening. For hardening you *should* be using tempil sticks, as the specified temperature is above critical by a bit. This will improve repeatability of your results. There are other precise ways to get the correct hardening temperature, but tempil sticks are the least expensive way. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted January 16, 2010 Share Posted January 16, 2010 As far as recognizing temps on steel goes.One of the things that worked very well to help me develop my eye was a simple tool called a Tempil stick,available at any well stocked welding supply store. They look like crayons or pencils and you just make a mark on the steel and put it in the forge.When that mark melts it`s at the temp that stick is rated for.They`re made in quite a range so they cover most every application I`ve needed.They`re cheap too,when compared to the cost of tool steel or a pyrometer and thermocouples. A neat trick is to use 3 at once.The middle one is your target temp,use the one above and the one below the target temp and make a mark with each close enough together you can see them all easily but far enough apart to tell one from another.When the first melts get ready.Second melt pull the iron and beat or quench(notice and remember the look of it first).If the third melts you`ve overheated. Use them alot at first and soon you`ll find they spend more time on the shelf as your eye takes over.Best part is they keep well and are always there when you rediscover an old alloy or find a new one. Best of luck to you and welcome to the craft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluedemon62 Posted January 17, 2010 Author Share Posted January 17, 2010 Thats extremely helpful!!! Specificly the part about the Tempil sticks. I'd heard of them in Highschool metalworking, but they had completely slipped my mind, Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefera4m Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 Mainly, Bob, prankow, Great tips. I've been using a small telescoping magnet but the ceramic magnet hanging from a thin wire sounds more convenient! The Tempil sticks is another great tip and the idea of using three to help understand the range of temps additionally useful. I think I'll try the Tempil sticks on several pieces of scrap to help with visually estimating the temps base on steel color for general forge work. I also think I'll use Tempil sticks on the more critical hardening temps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluedemon62 Posted January 23, 2010 Author Share Posted January 23, 2010 Does anyone know how to get an idea of the carbon content of a piece of metal? I have all kinds or metal scrap; round stock, hexagonal stock, etc. Is there any way possible to get a ball-park idea??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefera4m Posted January 24, 2010 Share Posted January 24, 2010 Does anyone know how to get an idea of the carbon content of a piece of metal? I have all kinds or metal scrap; round stock, hexagonal stock, etc. Is there any way possible to get a ball-park idea??? These two attachements might help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 REMEMBER THOSE ARE LOOSE SUGGESTIONS! Exp: jackhammer bits are NOT S series! Machinerys handbook lists S series as being good for jackhammer bits; but it's not used because of the expense---stainless steel would make a great car body---how many cars use it? Better to learn spark testing of steels---most welding textbooks will have a chart on spark testing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob55314 Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 hi i am just like yourself starting out i made my first two blades one out of an old woodwork chisel blade and one from an old metal work file both with good results all i can say is do not give up. all the best. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluedemon62 Posted January 31, 2010 Author Share Posted January 31, 2010 When forgeing the metal, is it best to flatten then create the bevel? or the other way around? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluedemon62 Posted February 9, 2010 Author Share Posted February 9, 2010 Ok, I have a few questions... 1. How do I put that twist on the handle that you see on many RR spike knives? I'm guessing that you heat the handle first then lock in a vice and twist with a wrench of some kind. Also, where would you grip it? By the round part or the part just before that? Oh, and would it need a full turn, or half turn? 2. What is a fast way to put a decent finish on a knife? I know about draw fileing and I've done it before when making cold chisles and the like, but as these are only some of my practice blades I would like to put a quick-but-quality finish and practice my forgeing/shapeing of the blade instead of spending all that time shaveing metal, atleast untill I get a little more experience. 3a. About my forge, it seems to eat through propane, largely my fault for buying a two-burner instead of a single! Is there any way I can get the same heat while reduceing my gas expediture??? 3b. After awhile, the flames tend to flicker a little, especially when it's cold. The tank will get covered in frost and when I shake it up, the flames kick back in full bore! I've tried bleeding the tank and that doesn't seen to help, could it simply be the cold? and 4. When normallizing, does it need to be left out till cooled completely? Or just untill it's magnetic again? If anyone has one or more answers to any/all of these questions, please post them or message me! Thanks!!! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Grip it where ever you can get a good grip, if you have a narrow jaw twisting wrench---like one made from a ford wrench right under the top works well. Twist it to what ever looks good to YOU, just as you can't tell me what I like, I can't tell you what you will like---however be aware of which side the edge will be on vs full and 1/2 turns so that the top is oriented right WRT the edge. Fast way to put a decent finish on a blade is to buy and use a belt grinder; I'm partial to baders myself. Close off one of the burners and decrease the size of your forges chamber with some soft firebricks or removable kaowool back wall. (putting a valve on the gas pipe to that burner is a simple way to close it down.) Propane gets cold as it goes from a liquid to the gas which is what you burn. Draw too fast and it will get so cold it won't gassify. So you can A set the tank in a larger bucket of *warm water* to keep it happy or be get a bigger tank so it can bleed off more cold without getting too cold or C manifold multiple tanks together. Bleeding the tank is just stupid---wasting gas and increasing danger and makes things worse! I strongly suggest you research safe usage of fuel gasses ASAP! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason0012 Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 I would fall behind the recommendation of coil springs as a starter material. When I was just starting I made most of my knives from lawn mower blades and old files. Simple high carbon steel is really easy to forge. It moves well under the hammer and the end result will make a good blade. Seems silly to work at making blades and not get something useful in the end. I would suggest starting with files. You will face far less material resistance working a blade down from a 3/16x 7/8 file of 1095 than you will forging it from a 3/4 square of mild steel! Spring steels and simple carbon steels are usually not all that resistant to forging and not worth being afraid of. I have recently been forging blades from high chromium(52100) and its a whole different story! Just wait until you try some stainless, ATS34 is loads of fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Mild steel has a huge working window, from welding heat all the way down to room temperature. Spring steels have rather narrow windows of working heat, and if it is not hot enough you can work all day and get nowhere, similarly if you get the metal too hot you made some junk steel that may not be recoverable for anything, and definitely cannot be made into a knife. For a 2 hour session, floating or submerging the bottle in cold tap water will be fine with a 20# bottle and 2 burners. You will make a large block of ice, but won't loose pressure till the bottle is empty. Longer sessions require warm water. Also having you forge not hot enough for your material and task simply wastes fuel. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefera4m Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 I would fall behind the recommendation of coil springs as a starter material. When I was just starting I made most of my knives from lawn mower blades and old files. Simple high carbon steel is really easy to forge. It moves well under the hammer and the end result will make a good blade. Seems silly to work at making blades and not get something useful in the end. I would suggest starting with files. You will face far less material resistance working a blade down from a 3/16x 7/8 file of 1095 than you will forging it from a 3/4 square of mild steel! Spring steels and simple carbon steels are usually not all that resistant to forging and not worth being afraid of. I have recently been forging blades from high chromium(52100) and its a whole different story! Just wait until you try some stainless, ATS34 is loads of fun! Spring steel such as leaf springs/coil springs from older vehicles is commonly 5160 - .6% carbon/.8% chromium - they're not 'simple' steels. They can be a bear to work and need to be annealed just to be workable. Not as difficult as 52100 (Carbon 0.98 - 1.1 Chromium 1.3 - 1.6) but tough nevertheless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason0012 Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 5160 might have some chromium but it moves pretty easy under the hammer and doesn't tend to red short, or seem succeptable to thermal shock like some higher alloyed steels. Heat treating 5160 is fairly easy, it machines well and is easy to find in scrap making it an ideal starter material for a beginner. And if one insists on using new material 5160 is pretty inexpensive, just call some spring shops. Oh, and it can make a first class blade ! I never found 5160 to be a bear of a steel to work. Ok, perhaps I have gotten stock that was too big to work by hand , but that's not the steel, just my being stupid trying to forge 1 1/2 round ! A beginning knife maker will at some point have to learn to work alloy steels. 5160 is a good place to start as it is very forgiving. As cuttlery steels go it is exceptionaly easy to forge. I always considered 5160 and 4140 the "easy" steels in my tool steel rack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucegodlesky Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 5160???? easiest steel to work on the anvil, imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtWerkz Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 The $50 dollar knife shop by Wayne Goddard. Lots of great info and tricks and how to's for the beginner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 More complex medium and high carbon steels have a narrow, usually high, temperature window that will provide excellent results, and cooler than that temperature window you are wasting your time or need to reheat. When I am in the temperature band, leaf spring moves like soft putty. As it cools it notably becomes stiffer, and at a red heat all I can do is straighten for the next heat, and that is even difficult. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kodiak93657 Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 ArtWerkz Posted 10 February 2010 - 02:46 PM The $50 dollar knife shop by Wayne Goddard. Lots of great info and tricks and how to's for the beginner. Definately. As a complete noob myself, I learned tons from this book. Although I tried the "world's smallest forge", and it broke . I'll just have to keep pluggin along, durn it!! Happy Hammerin'! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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