Just starting out! *NEED HELP*

[Bluedemon62]

I'm just starting out knifemaking and would appriciate tips/suggestions. I've already made two useing an old furnace and plain fire wood blown hot by an old inflate-a-bed blower; a thrower about 2 1/2ins long and a small fixed blade. (I'll try an attach a pic of the fixed blade.) However, they are very rough and made with metal that was too soft; they bend with moderate ease...

Anyhow, I just recently bought a gas forge and I already have several hammers, a set of self-made tongs(again, too pliable, but they work ok), an anvil, and all applicable safety equipment.

I was thinking that I might get some railroad spikes and go at 'um? I'm more or less looking for a good beginners project that will help me get better familiar with knifesmithing. So if you have any tips, suggestions, or other ideas, please let me know!

Best so far out of 2:

[nonjic]

Depends on your budget. If you can afford good quality steel from a reputable supplier go for it! Then its just learning techneque, forging the tip, tang bevels etc!

If you dont want to learn on more expensive materials try and find an old truck coil spring. You can cut 6" sections from it (Zip disk in a 4 1/2 grinder will make short work of it), straighten and forge flat, then onto tips, tangs & bevels. Advantage of a big spring is you will have quite a bit of the same material which means you can play around with the heat treatment etc and compare results, which isnt the case if you start forging old files and suchlike (which are another favourite source of good knife steel)

Have fun!

[Bluedemon62]

How do you control the bevel on the blade? is it in the way you strike the metal or the way you hold it?

[Rhyfelwr]

Both, its the way I hold the metal on the anvil sometimes.. And sometimes its just the angle I work it with the hammer. To keep it symmetrical you have to swap sides every once in a while, I learned by trial and error.

Keep at it, looks good for a first or second knife!

[Chris Waldon]

How did you do that leather wrapping? I really like the effect.

[Bentiron1946]

Not bad for starting out. You're braver than I was starting out, I would never have thought to show my early work. You get better at controlling your hammer every day and that makes forging the bevel easier. After you get it about right then comes the file and grinder work to refine the blade. For some of us it only a matter of weeks to almost perfection and others its a life time, but there is great pleasure in the journey. Keep it up!

[Chris Waldon]

I would argue that perfection is never attained, but the pursuit of such is what keeps a bladesmith alive and burning with passion for his craft.

[ThomasPowers]

RR spikes, even the ones stamped HC are low carbon steel. The HC ones are up towards the low carbon/medium carbon boundry.

If you want to learn knifemaking I would suggest using at least a medium carbon steel so you can get used to it's much more stringent forging limits and harder workability and can start learning heat treat.

As mentioned above getting and auto or truck coil spring and cutting it into sections will give you a LOT of stock to get started with. Most auto springs are a medium carbon with about double the carbon content of an HC RR spike.

[reefera4m]

Bluedemon62,

I'll provide a different perspective - start with railroad spikes - I did!

First of all they are fairly easy to make yet they can turn out beautiful (just Google railroad spike knives and see for yourself!)

Second, because they are a lower carbon steel they are easier to forge and a great way to learn how to forge and practice you hammer technique and heat management.

Third, they are very inexpensive to acquire (I've found quite a few - even though they might not have been 'lost' .

Fourth, starting out with more commonly accepted knife steel is darn difficult. The steel, even the common leaf spring steel (5160) is a bear to work. For example, it takes 5-10 times as much work to forge knife steel compared to RR spikes. And it takes more fuel to heat it to forging temperature (it takes me easily 5-10 times as much coal when I use my coal forge compared to RR Spikes and just about that much more propane with I use my propane forge)

Fifth, it is much easier to grind and file to a finished shape that most 'knife steels' even if they been properly annealed. You get more good practice with RR Spikes.

Finally, you can make a RR spike knife in a hour or two, 30 minutes once you get the hang of it. Making a good knife using knife steel also requires you to make handles, bolster, pins and requires finding the right glue,etc, etc,. This can take days or even weeks. It's ultimately worth it but I'd recommend you walk before you run.

I'll send you a little document that you can use as a primer to make an excellant knife from leaf spring steel. You'll understand what I getting at.

Good luck with whatever path you take and don't be afraid to ask questions!

[ThomasPowers]

And I will counter: What are you trying to learn---How to forge a RR spike or how to forge a knife?

I've had quite a few students who had to go back and un-learn bad habits they had gotten into working low carbon steel when they went to forging high carbon steels---working it too hot; or too cold, accidentally quenching it on a cold anvil or in a cold vise, etc.

I came into blacksmithing through knifemaking and so my habits and reflexes are set for working High C and so it makes it harder to do plain ornamental work in low C and working real WI takes an act of will to heat to the right temps! *But* I don't usually have any problems when I do forge blades.

Finally: if, by beginner's luck, you do get a good blade forged then you have a *knife* not a letter opener. (and BTW there are a lot of knife styles that do not take any extra hilting work...)

[Bluedemon62]

How did you do that leather wrapping? I really like the effect.

I just took a length of leather at the middle and started wrapping it around, alternating between the two, and put them through a hole I drilled towards the end and then tied um up! Its really very easy and although limited you can actually make a few different designs after you play around with it a little.

[Bluedemon62]

I really appriciate the advice! I especially like the opposing viewpoints because it shows pespective on both ends. Although, the thing I hear most is that I should simply play it out through trial and error. That I like. I'm glad to have your opinions because the way I plan to do it is by useing varying methods and materials, to learn by trial and error, but span it out over different metals. Though I feel as though I do lean towards the idea of "HC" RR spikes due to the availability.

I truely appiciate how readily you all have offered up your knowledge, advice, and support!

Thank you.

[reefera4m]

If you take out the term 'RR Spike' and just refer to it as a 3/4" billet of low to medium carbon steel then you are forging a knife, mabye not a great one, but one very similiar to those of bygone eras and one that in FACT can be very servicable as a knife. One of my first was a skinner style and it helped skin an entire cow.

The same lessons for forging low carbon steel generally apply to higher carbon steels. The hammering techniques are the same, as are the need for proper heat recognition, working steel at the right temperature, cold anvils, etc. If you forge all so-called 'knife steels' at the same temperature you'll still run into problems. Each type of steel has a proper forging temperature, proper normalizing temperature and hardening/quenching temperatures. You can screw up low carbon steel the same way you can high C steel but it won't cost you as much. And while I'll be the first to admit that working knife steels is more difficult that low/medium carbon steels, it is definitely easier if you learn the basic of forging first.

I'd neve recommend learning to drag race in a top fuel dragster if there was a modified stock car available nor would I recommend learning to shoot pistols with a .50 cal S&W. :rolleyes:

[ThomasPowers]

Walking along a RR track collecting spikes is a crime.

Picking up a coil spring from a service station or junk yard isn't.

[reefera4m]

Very true. However walking along an abandoned railroad line and picking them up isn't. There are lots of place to find or acquire railroad spikes that aren't illegal. I've found them it abandoned mines, along abandoned track right-of-ways that have had the rails remove and along abandoned lines where the rails were still in place. In fact, I found quite a few along a rail line right-of-way that the railroad company gave to King County, WA. They removed the rails and then the County built a bike/wallking path about 10 miles long on this right-of -way. The didn't pick up a lot of the old spikes.

I've also spoken to railroad employees who've told me that they leave new spikes along the tracks for future repairs and that these are illegal to take, but that this is not a common practice any more. They also told me that spikes that are obviously damaged and have been replaced can be taken as it is not worth their effort to pick them up for recycling. I stick to the 'abandoned ones'.

Another thing, not all spikes are low carbon. Some, particulary more modern ones used in junctions, have a much high steel content. If you look into RR Spikes the usually have a set of letters or numbers stamped on them. There are websites that provide identification for some of these spikes as well as whether or not they are low carbon or higher carbon.

Here is an example of a RR Spike knife by friend and well know master Bladesmith Lyle Brunckhorst:


For more examples just 'Google RR Spike Knives' to learn more.

[Dragons lair]

As long as the RR holds the right of way they can charge you. Don't rely on info from a trackhand. Check at the office.
Ken

[jmeineke]

You can also order brand new spikes from McMaster-Carr - http://www.mcmaster.com/#97897a818/=5cywr7. I sent them an email a while back enquiring about carbon content and they responded that they did not have that information.

The ones I ordered are stamped "HC" on the head which I presume means 'high carbon.' I know that's relative to RR Spikes and not what one would generally consider to be high carbon steel (hardenable, heat-treatale), but for the price, and for not having to worry about whether or not you are breaking the law, I don't think you can go wrong.

[son_of_bluegrass]

I didn't see your general location listed anywhere. If you put a city and start up there may be someone close to you willing to give you some first hand experience or let you watch him work.

ron

[rokshasa]

this i think is the best "newbe" thread yet lol, thomas and reefera4m put up some good points as well as the others who have posted, but i would lean toward the spring steel befor the spike knife, i get them free from any garage i come by...i just go in and ask them if they have some old coils around, broken or discarded and ask to pick them up. they are always happy when i come and RID them of there junk lol. most of the time a metal recycler will pick them up and he wont even pay the garage so i dont see what the diff is if its me instead.

[ThomasPowers]

Additionally included in a fax to Mike Blue by the gentleman at Wellington industries, a division of Sheffield Steel:
"Because of the bending tests required, the carbon content will not be greater
than 0.30%. After all, brittle spikes would not be desirable as a track spike.
A bent spike still holds the rail while a fractured spike would not. The consequences
for the industry would be too great to consider. However, we refer to them as high
carbon, they are not within the range of steels known as high carbon or
hypereutectoid according to the steel industry standards, and have not been
since at least 1926, when most track spikes were previously manufactured from
wrought iron."

[reefera4m]

Pros and cons aside, a well made RR Spike knife is a great way to learn, can look quite good, and will , if well made and well sharpened, cut your arm of in a NEW YORK second! :)

[reefera4m]

Pros and cons aside, a well made RR Spike knife is a great way to learn, can look quite good, and will , if well made and well sharpened, cut your arm of in a NEW YORK second! :)

[Bluedemon62]

Pros and cons aside, a well made RR Spike knife is a great way to learn, can look quite good, and will , if well made and well sharpened, cut your arm of in a NEW YORK second!

From what I've seen, I agree!

[Bluedemon62]

What I want to know now is; how do you tell the correct forgeing temp of a metal? If i'm correct it's by color, but is this uniform between metals? Or are there variences between high and low carbon metals?

[pkrankow]

Once the material is glowing hot (about 1000F in a dark room) the temperature of ceramic, iron, steel and other materials will be the same temperature at the same color.

Tempering colors, from about 410F to 1000F while consistent on carbon steels across the heat range, may differ on alloyed steels. Tempering colors are formed by the iron oxide layer that forms and thickens. Tempering colors have some time dependence, and longer dwell at constant temperature (at least between 410F and 500F) can cause the color to "run" to a higher temperature even though the higher temp was not met, but this takes many minutes or hours.

Colors look different in different lighting, and that can cause a separate set of problems, especially for people who work exclusively under natural lighting or outside.

Hope this helps
Phil