Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 A few years ago there were more conversations about "shop rate". People couldn't understand why some shops had such high rates. They thought they could do fine on $35.00 or 50.00. That's only true if you got a steady business. And of course now they're charging even less just hoping to bring in a little work. Well, this downturn is a deep one, but there has always been boom times and bust. Now you can understand a little more about why the "big boys" charge what they do. It helps to get them through the hard times. And they can even cut their prices and still make money. Ya gotta make fat money in fat times, 'cause lean times always come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Masuk Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 A few years ago there were more conversations about "shop rate". People couldn't understand why some shops had such high rates. They thought they could do fine on $35.00 or 50.00. That's only true if you got a steady business. And of course now they're charging even less just hoping to bring in a little work. Well, this downturn is a deep one, but there has always been boom times and bust. Now you can understand a little more about why the "big boys" charge what they do. It helps to get them through the hard times. And they can even cut their prices and still make money. Ya gotta make fat money in fat times, 'cause lean times always come. No doubt dont forget about minor fixes that typically get added on to things, a average small metal shop has 3-4 guys working in it that means if each guy works 40 hours a week x 4 you have 160 x employees or 480 hours per month with 3 guys if shop rate is 100 per hour you "could" make 48 000 per month minus all your expenses which is probley in the range of at least 12 000 per month in "things" like rent and consumables, gasoline, power and another 12 000 at least to employees and insuring them minus another 4800 bucks to typical mistakes/pleasing the customer this also covers to a certain extent "shop time" like swapping blades and finding missing pieces of steel you might be able to make 20 k per month if you keep the train on the rails and really know your work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 One really frustrating thing is that you don't just reach plateaus as you grow, but there are valleys. When you get 1 - 2 employees, it's really cool, you're getting a lot more done, everything runs pretty smooth and you're makin' pretty good money. So you bring in more work, hire a couple more guys and everything goes in the crapper! Why? Well, you find all you have time for now is keeping everyone busy. You just lost your most productive guy! You're now “overhead”! You really lost two guys, because you were turning out the same as any two employees. And now you gotta put in a bigger compressor and you're maxing out your electrical that seemed like plenty when you put it in. And you can no longer juggle power outlets like you used to because now you gotta be able to run the hydraulic press and the big welder at the same time. Sure is fun being self-employed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 One really frustrating thing is that you don't just reach plateaus as you grow, but there are valleys. When you get 1 – 2 employees, it's really cool, you're getting a lot more done, everything runs pretty smooth and you're makin' pretty good money. So you bring in more work, hire a couple more guys and everything goes in the crapper! Why? Well, you find all you have time for now is keeping everyone busy. You just lost your most productive guy! You're now “overhead”! You really lost two guys, because you were turning out the same as any two employees. And now you gotta put in a bigger compressor and you're maxing out your electrical that seemed like plenty when you put it in. And you can no longer juggle power outlets like you used to because now you gotta be able to run the hydraulic press and the big welder at the same time. Sure is fun being self-employed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 Some of the best examples of sucssesful blacksmithing buisness I have seen from my peers for long term sucesses, alot for over 25 years have been to keep it simple. Work by yourself and if you do get the job that you need more help with call on your local blacksmith brothers and sub contract to them or hire them as contract labor. Charge competative rates and try to put somthing aside for the lean times. I know that is hard when that certain piece of machinery comes along at a bargin price. :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 Lots of pessimism and despair on this thread, I truly hope everyone makes out OK and even prospers over the long haul. No telling whats on the horizon but people will always need and want things. It is this belief that keeps me going I've never made really huge money in my life. I've never been fully dedicated to that but I have managed to build a nice shop and equip it with serviceable machinery. I haven't gone the CNC rout because I like hand work. I intentionally stay small, a one man shop. I have had crews of up to 15 employees and the one unfortunate thing I found is that I became an underpaid babysitter. As an old employer put it- Being an effective manager is about removing obstacle so the people producing can produce efficiently. That can be an all consuming task as it seems more and more people bring there "issues" to work with them. As Grant said it can spiral out of control until one day you wake up and you realize your not making as much money as you were and your exposure to risk is WAY higher. I have used this down cycle to retool me! I have worked as a General Contractor specializing in period restorations of old homes for many years. I never really liked it. I have always planned on building a shop that I can make what I want in... Or more importantly what I would enjoy making for the general public. (I hate the word "consumer", I see it as a big mouth with craggy teeth where the throat leads to the landfill) I'm getting closer to that but still have a long way to go. Over the last couple months I've been putting together a business plan. A main component of the plan for expansion is outsourcing to subs. I DO NOT want employees or the head ache... Been there done that! I have 3 product line directions to start with and will go in the direction that is most promising as it plays out. This time around- I'm bringing more passion and commitment to the game because this truly is what I want to do. As Larry said "I will do whatever it takes" because I have nowhere else to go! I will either achieve a version of success or go down in a flaming ball of fire. (I am getting a Resale Number) The work is out there and so is the competition. I firmly believe if the product is good and your exposure is good you will succeed. Knowing how to handle everything in between is the challenge...enough of my ramblings..... Good luck to all and God Speed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 Times are tough, SO WHAT? You might go out of business, SO WHAT? It's not a rhetorical question, I really mean: SO WHAT? I've failed before, thought my life was over. It wasn't! Failure is just another lesson, learn from it. Go back to work somewhere, regroup and try again. I might lose my house! SO WHAT? Half the population rents. Failure teaches you that the fact of failure isn't nearly as bad as the perception. Many successful people have experienced failure. The only way to avoid failure is to not do anything. Failure also helps you shed your aversion to risk. Successful people are risk-takers. How can I get a job in this economy? Unemployment might be at 10% or more, but that means that the top 90% ARE working. If you don't have a job, your nine-to-five, full-time job is finding one. If you can't sell yourself to someone you can forget about selling anything else. You gotta be able to do that every day when you're in business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 Grant, If nothing else,you`re a truth teller! Why would the truth tend to aggravate people?The truth is and always will be the truth. Don`t stone the messenger just because you don`t want to hear the message. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Browne Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 Now you've gone and done it Grant! You've spoiled a perfectly good pity party. In a previous life, I worked for 13 years in the corporate technology sector . Yeah, I know...I'm not proud of it either. Every company I worked for had a 1, 3 and a 5 year business plan. These plans were subject to review every 6 months and were revised as the market dictated. It was a PIA to do this, but it forced you to stay on top of your business and to face the facts of what was working and what wasn't. Call it an early warning system. So...Times are tough you say. Let's say you had a successful business doing the same thing for 10 years and now "all of a sudden" it doesn't work. Get creative, get real and re-work your business plan/strategy. A lot of companies go under because they ignore the writing on the wall, continue to do what they have always done and fail to react soon enough. The point is, that a business is a living breathing organism that reacts to external forces including: changes in the economy, changes in styles or peoples tastes, availablity of certain materials or labor, cost of goods and services, etc. The list is endless. When you come to an obstacle in your business path, figure out a way to go under, over, or around it (or just blow the xxxx thing up and move on). Just don't quit. That's when you fail. -DB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 That's exactly how I feel.. 9 years ago I came to Seattle with a 30 year old pickup truck and a sack full of dirty laundry.. which was the sum total of all my worldly possessions... the only thing I had to my name was debt for things my ex wife and her boyfriend where now enjoying... My first job was not enough to pay both my rent and my child support.. Let alone food or any extras.. But I could do anything I wanted... Life is grand now, As I sell off all the stuff I bought when times are fat and worry about where the money is going to come from to pay the rent I am still thrilled to get chance... And If it all goes away... I'll still be working at it doing what ever I can to make it work... Starting over seems like a big deal at the time but its just a blip in the bigger picture... Thanks Grant! By trying to "Urinate" me off you actually made me feel better :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 i like this thread! ive got to agree about going for it and keep trying.. but also remember what your trying to acomplish !!! I think people sometimes get to scessful and grow too fast then BOOM hard times comes along and theyre in the toilet.... if your not spending like a salor when your doing good you can ride the rough times and even make money! just remember if all buisnesses are haveing a hard time then they will be getting rid of items they dont use (the old tools we like) and some good deals to be had!As far as sales goes blacksmiths have a hook we can use to increase sales its called history ... People tell me all the time that "blacksmiths are a dyeing art" well sell it!! sell them on supporting our"DYEING" art! it helps that i work out of a museum but it does help! good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 I worked for a couple of small shops before starting my own machine and fab shop. That lasted 6 years before we closed up, and I went to work for one of my customers who had a small foundry that made dental alloys. I picked up induction melting, investment, and continuous casting experience there. Then it was off to an automotive lift company where I added hydraulics, electrical, plumbing, concrete, compressors, and various pumps. Then it was off to the Jelly Belly Candy Company as an all around plant maintenance mechanic where I added steam systems, conveyors, control systems, robotics, pneumatics, kitchen equipment,and more. Then it was off to work for a machine gun dealer, and finally ended up back making chips as a tool maker after a 14 year hiatus doing the other jobs. Just because I was a machinist, that didn't mean that was the only thing I could do. With each new job I added valuable new skills. If my job ended tomorrow, I wouldn't be that distressed, because I believe in the skills that I have. I am at a crossroads at this stage of my life. The only time I was truly happy was when I was self employed. I have 42 ideas for products that I have come up with. You get to do a lot of thinking when your commute is 100 miles each way every day I really want to start another company, but I need to figure out which hair brained invention I want to start with first. Once I get that figured out I can start putting the wheels into motion. One thing that I learned from my failed machine and fab shop was how paying cash as we went saved our butts when we had to close up. All of the machine tools, all of the materials, everything was paid for in full. No loans, no leases, no borrowed money at all. We started small,and added on when we could afford it. When the building was sold, and the new owners were booting us out, all we had to do was take our tools home. No loans, or leases = no repossessions. I would also want to own the next shop building. I think the biggest thing that my business partner, and I took away from that experience is that we are not asking "what if?" today, we know. Adapt, and overcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chyancarrek Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 Thanks for all the great perspectives guys! Before I settled on blacksmithing, foundry work and furniture making I too worked in the corporate sector - I used to teach designers how to use computers creatively for an o' so famous footwear maker. I loved working for them - a great big pool of creative folk across the spectrum but it wasn't "filling the soul" helping someone else realize their dream. When I struck off on my own, I made two decisions - first, go it alone, no employees, no investors. Second, own everything outright - no debt, no rent, no one has a hand in it but me. I bought and paid for my house, property, shop and equipment up front then started chasing down business. It was great from the git-go and times were good but as the work started drying up, it was those decisions that made it possible to stay standing. While smithing may not be paying all the bills right now, I'm free to chase any buck I see blowing down the street to make ends meet. Whether it's landscaping, illustration work, database building, ditch digging, fence mending, house repair and cleaning, etc ( yep, I've done them all in the last year) my shop and all of it's equipment sit intact ready to go at a moments notice for paying work or just a creative whim. It sure as h*ll may not be easy or always enjoyable but you work it. Grant and the others are right - If you want to make it through tomorrow, stop worrying about today and do what needs to be done, whatever that may be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 "Failure is simply the opportunity to begin again, this time more intelligently." ~ Henry Ford ~ Who failed many times. Fear of failure is one of the greatest obstacles to success! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sask Mark Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Chyancarrek, did you work for Nike in Beaverton (I think that's where it was)? I have a friend that worked there and she loved it! She said is was a very positive environment. She lives in Battle Ground and her parents live beside Mt. St. Helens too. Getting back to the thread topic, Wayne Gretzky once said 'You miss 100% of the shots you don't take'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chyancarrek Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Mark, Nike campus in Beaverton it was. - During my 9 years at Swooshtown, the folks and environment there were a great contributer to how I approach my foray into the world of smithing. It's funny that you quote Gretzky - Given the nature of Nike and how sports are it's corporate culture, I'm not a sports guy at all ( I have no idea when this year's Super Bowl will be played or who's playing in it). I worked there for 5 years before I realized Wayne Gretzky was a hockey player and not a member of the Portland Trailblazers basketball team . . .. Your quote is right on the money for this thread - Take the shot, otherwise, what's the point? While it's become a cliche', there's a lot o' validity to "Just Do It" in terms of setting your sights on something and not letting your fears or the obstacles stand in the way of your vision. I was at Nike from '90 - '99 - When did your friend work there? Battleground is 15 mi. to the South of me and is the nearest "large" town to my place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sask Mark Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 I think she worked there in the mid to late 90's as well. I worked with her from 2000-2006 when I was working for a malting company (she works at the malting facility in Vancouver, WA). I traveled down to Vancouver routinely as I was the technical manager for the labs in our company (I love the Vancouver/Portland areas). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtWerkz Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Here's my chance to urinate everybody off! Times are tough, SO WHAT? You might go out of business, SO WHAT? It's not a rhetorical question, I really mean: SO WHAT? I've failed before, thought my life was over. It wasn't! Failure is just another lesson, learn from it. Go back to work somewhere, regroup and try again. I might lose my house! SO WHAT? Half the population rents. Failure teaches you that the fact of failure isn't nearly as bad as the perception. Many successful people have experienced failure. The only way to avoid failure is to not do anything. Failure also helps you shed your aversion to risk. Successful people are risk-takers. How can I get a job in this economy? Unemployment might be at 10% or more, but that means that the top 90% ARE working. If you don't have a job, your nine-to-five, full-time job is finding one. If you can't sell yourself to someone you can forget about selling anything else. You gotta be able to do that every day when you're in business. Wham, the hammer of reality. Thanks Grant, the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Grant, you didn't "urinate me off" with your message. It is really pretty realistic. Now, on the other hand, I did get slightly miffed when you talked about making that hardy tool in half an hour with a hand hammer but not at you. Anyway, it has been a tough couple of years, but things seem like they have been warming up. I have seen an uptick this year. Keep up a good attitude. Things may be getting better. One of my friends once said that in the Great Depression, only 25% of the people were unemployed. If you are in the top 25%, there's nothing to worry about. This statement is completely unrealistic. If unemployment is that bad for long periods of time, everybody is feeling it. I spend quite a bit of time with the non-profit's, and in this recession, it's the big donors who are pulling back the worst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 I run a one man shop I have a few friends that love to come help when I need the help. I work full time and nights and weekends in the shop. But I keep educating customers. And if I dont get a Job well they were tought about blacksmithing. They become return customers when the buy cheeper work and then they need it fixed becouse it didn't hold up. Cant tell how many said "I should gone with you sorry". You can pay me how or you can pay me later makes no diffrence to me. Building here is in the pits. to build a new house it is $85.00 to $100.00 a sqft. You can buy a home built in the last five years $57.00 a sqft new never been lived in. I keep bidding on Jobs and still come in cheepest. Its not piled up but moving. So I use my down time to build tools. I have a good scrap pile and I am dipping into it. You don't always get to do what you want you have to do what others need. As long as its fun and there is food on the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metroliner Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 I run a one man shop I have a few friends that love to come help when I need the help. I work full time and nights and weekends in the shop. But I keep educating customers. And if I dont get a Job well they were tought about blacksmithing. They become return customers when the buy cheeper work and then they need it fixed becouse it didn't hold up. Cant tell how many said "I should gone with you sorry". You can pay me how or you can pay me later makes no diffrence to me. Building here is in the pits. to build a new house it is $85.00 to $100.00 a sqft. You can buy a home built in the last five years $57.00 a sqft new never been lived in. I keep bidding on Jobs and still come in cheepest. Its not piled up but moving. So I use my down time to build tools. I have a good scrap pile and I am dipping into it. You don't always get to do what you want you have to do what others need. As long as its fun and there is food on the table. So I just found this site and it is 1:45 am. I read all 3 pages....very entertaining. Here is my story. In 1993 I bought, for no money down, a cast stone business that was run out of a garage in the owners back yard. His book keeping system was a cigar box and a #2 pencil. I had a new born baby, a 2 year old and a very pis..ed off wife at home. I knew nothing about concrete. Within 5 years I had 15 men working, a fully automated batch plant, 12 months of backlog and an engineer cranking out CAD drawings as fast as the plotter would go. Then I sold in 2000. Since then I have been working in a very high tech industry heading up an R&D group. You know what....it sucks. Six figure salery, full medical and dental, paid vacations and holidays, "comp" days....all of it. I have years and years of metal working experience and I am going to be a blacksmith as the final chapter of my life. You can take technology, Blackberrys and office politics and shove it! I am self taught and successful in every career path I have been in and this is a cake walk compared to others. So if anyone is selling (or knows anyone who is selling) East of the Mississippi.....I AM BUYING CASH$$$$$ Anvils, power hammers, any and all applicable hand and misc tools. (Traditional blacksmith tools only. no mills, lathes, band saws, etc. They are 0.05 on the dollar right now) I am interested and motivated. Here is you chance to get out if it is so bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Furrer Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 Pardon me Metro, but I am a bit hesitant to believe your story. I hope it is true, but I have my reservations. BUT I had heard of an "old timey" blacksmith shop for sale in New England and you could probably get the smith's hat and apron as he walks out with your suitcase full of cash. I seem to recall one in Virginia as well, but that was a while back. I am sure one can locate what you are searching for in a blacksmith shop, knife-maker, potter, glass studio or a host of other pyrotechnology trades given the current state of things. I potter friend of mine sold here place a few years ago to a young man and he wanted the house and all the items in the shop. She has set up a smaller studio ten miles further out and seems happy. If you wish I'll forge you a full set of traditional tools, find those I can not make and fit you out a smithy in a building you find....and I'm sure a few others here have the same standing offer for you...for CASH$$ Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 All I can say is *QUAD-STATE*; bring the cash---and a big truck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chyancarrek Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Metro, There's no shortage of those who drop in here and tell us how they're going to take our world by storm . . . . That being said, you've come to the right place - around here we like it when folks speak up, we like it even more when folks step-up and we see their actions meet their words. Sounds like you're in great shape to contribute to the craft you want to join . . . stick around, ask around, you'll find a number of members here who sell the gear you're looking for professionally - no better way to support the community then to spend your money with the people in it. We're looking forward to hearing about your progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGropp Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Metro, Not to rain on your parade, but you might try it for a few years before calling it a "cakewalk. " It has the potential to be a well paying vocation, but to actually make a living as a blacksmith is neither simple or easy. Having the right equipment is essential, but only a small part of it. Good luck in your quest ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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