Stick trick

[Chris P]

Duel wielding welding rod.

I few weeks ago I saw a friend of mine stick welding a soon to be wood processor. Usually he MIGs everything, so I hadn't had a chance to really pick up on any of the little tricks for stick (stick being my primary means of welding atm). I looked up to see him holding the stinger in one hand and another electrode in the other. I'm sure this is a common thing in the industry, but, its something I would have never thought of doing.

I tried it tonight on a makeshift forge I'm assembling and it works great. Kind of like brazing while welding.

Anyway, just thought I'd share a simple thing that impressed my simple mind .

[David Einhorn]

I am not the brightest bulb in lamp, but if something slips couldn't he accidentally become the shortest distance between two electrodes?

[Dragons lair]

Unicorn, Been welding about 45 yrs. Never tried that but don't think it would be any
different than Tig. Now Tig will bite ya if ground your elbow,(Watched the wife do that)
Xxxx if she didn't keep right on going.
Ken

[arftist]

Where I am from we call that stick-tig. It is gerneraly the result of poor fitup. Works best on thick metal, 1/2" and up. 7018 is prefered for the second rod, since it is easy to knock the flux off.

[orgtwister]

we call that here you idiot you cut it short as i have worked with some helpers that say they know what they were doing and still cut it 1/2 short

[monstermetal]

Im not much of a stick welder... But I can tell you I have been bit by a good many welders of all types...

The worst was I used to work on a crew that put up bridge cranes... when hanging the electrification brackets you would have two guys in a scissor lift... one guy would hold the bracket up to the crane runway, the other would weld it on.... Now if that guy is stick welding... and you have any holes in your gloves, or are not wearing gloves.. and that rod touches you while you have hold of the runway... you get bit... pretty hard if sometimes... and it happened a lot So here you are 25 feet in the air leaned over trying to hold this chunk of heavy steel just right while not getting blinded by the flash and BOOOOOF OUCH! and 10 minutes later.... BOOOOOF Ouch!!


I actually heard of a death here at a local manufacturing facility... Guy grounded a big welder... 600 amps + and it shut him off.....

[cami]

Welding with two electrodes like that? Just say no. If you want to lay more pounds of steel in an hour then try a larger rod, try a fast fill rod (like 7024) if you can, or find a suitcase welder and run wire. Welding rods are engineered to be used a certain way and if you change that, you can't make guarantees.

Oh, is this a soap box I'm standing on?

Before today I've only heard of this stick-TIG techniques in tall tales told of great welders in days gone by. Usually there's a story about the same fellow taking a stinger in each hand and doing the root pass on both sides of a pipe simultaneously. I think in one version, he stuck a broom up his rear end and swept up his work area while he did it ;)

[Chris P]

Other than you not liking the idea, is there a reason to "just say no?"

Most of the time my stuff is cut to length and fits up all nice. But, there are sometimes when I'm working with scrap just throwing stuff together, that things aren't so pretty and nice. This was one of those times. I'm making a makeshift forge out of some old IH Scout parts. The metal I was working with was half rusted through and pretty thin to begin with. Using the second rod help me avoid burn through and helped me fill in some holes. I didn't need to run the second rod, I could have gotten by just fine working with one. But, the second rod made it quicker and a little easier, so, why not?

As far as days gone by, I'm actually a bigger fan of the old school techniques than a lot of the more modern methods. Today people seem to be more concerned with comfort and safety than with getting the job done. Maybe its just me.

[monstermetal]

No spoon?


I poke badgers with spoons......

[pkrankow]

I'm going to file it away in the back of my brain and maybe I'll never need this idea, but if I do then it might be used!
Phil

[HWooldridge]

This is a new one on me - I learned to weld in my teens and I'm only 51 so certainly haven't seen everything but in that time, I have never seen or heard of adding a separate rod to the stinger puddle while stick welding. Some of my experience was pipeline work, some was fabrication and some was repair in equipment shops - but it's a big world and lots of ways to skin a cat...I certainly won't speculate whether it works or not since the posts obviously indicate that it does, but my initial concern would be slag inclusions because one rod is burning and one isn't - and I doubt very seriously if an inspector would allow it. If the fitup was that poor, I would prefer to tack some additional bare material into place and weld over the whole shebang.

[cami]

@ChrisP: Welding rods are engineered to be used a certain way and if you use them in a way that's not intended, you can't make guarantees. When scabbing things together, anything goes, but I generally say no to customers with scab jobs.

Jabbing a (second) rod into your puddle will cool and shrink it, and it's something I'll do when doing OAW or GTAW, but with those processes it can be done without deviating from common practices. I have never seen a SMAW weld procedure that called for dipping in a second rod and would question judgement of a professional welder who did it on a job.

Speaking generally about something like heat control with SMAW, there are choices that allow you to use the process as it was intended. Depending what you're doing, backer strips, heat sinks, back stitching, or smaller rods might work for you. These have all worked for me at different times but most of the time, what works for me, is to weld downhand using 6010 with the lowest current I can get away with.

As for comfort, it can make a big difference in weld quality; especially if you're doing it all day, every day. I don't have time for prima donnas but there's no point in making things harder than they need to be.

[arftist]

Hard not to respond, obviosly using an extra stick is an emergcy repair, not something a customer would come in and ask for.
Just because you haven't heard of or thought of or done something doesn't mean you should disdain it.
I have been a professional welder for over thirty years, try to remember, there are many different classes of welders, and I would not use this method on something subject to inspection or x-ray.
As I said earlier, only 7018 rod should be used, with the flux knocked off the "extra filler rod.
I have only had to use this method a couple times in my entire career, it does indeed work, and both instances were considered emergencies at the time.

Also, you don't jab the second rod into the puddle, but rather you use the heat from the first rod to melt the second rod and drop it into the puddle. Kind of hard to explain and hard to do too, but certainly possible. Remember, nessesity is a mother.

Edited December 22, 2009 by arftist

[Hillbillysmith]

I HIGHLY recommend not doing this. Its not proper according to AWS or ASME. Plus, theres an excellent chance that youll get insufficient fusion along the weld joint. If theres a need for more filler metal, run multiple passes. You could use a bigger rod, but then its a possibility that you could have too much heat input into the base material.

-Tony

[Chris P]

Also, you don't jab the second rod into the puddle, but rather you use the heat from the first rod to melt the second rod and drop it into the puddle. Kind of hard to explain and hard to do too, but certainly possible. Remember, nessesity is a mother.

Exactly, thanks for mentioning this. Also, I wasn't using this for a real structural situation, it was more just to fill holes. I can say though, from what I've seen of it, it does work. I'm sure there are better options out there, but in a pinch it can come in handy.

[MLMartin]

in non structural joints when i cut it 3 times and its still to short, i just lay a piece of 1/4 round bar in the joint and weld two passes over it

[evfreek]

I have heard of this trick, too. The names I have heard were "Mexican TIG" and "STIG welding." I have also heard more negative terms like "Chinese welding" (from an incident when some large valves failed due to somebody dropping several rod stubs and junk in to achieve greater fill rates per pass) and "slugging" (a shipyard term, about equally dishonest practices). By the way, I have been searching around the Internet about the valve failure incident, but was not able to find it. Anyone have a link?

Anyway, this kind of practice seriously undermines the integrity of the weld, but sometimes this is not all that harmful. I slugged the weld on my anvil when I welded a horn on to it. I have seriously abused that horn, including dinging it up with a hammer and bending scrolls cold over it. It is much more likely to damage the tip, simply because it is thinner. The weld join is much thicker, even when you subtract the slugging. One problem is the inclusions causing crack initiators. Hasn't happened yet, after many years, and I don't abuse it any more. Just abused it early on to test it.

Another thing this trick is useful for is repairing thin sheet metal and for welding garbage together for sculpture. Again, an order of magnitude reduction in strength of the bead is not a disaster for such applications. Same for scabbing together a forge. The rest of these old forges is often severely corroded and much weaker than the junk weld. I have also used this trick for repairing those chimney starters for starting charcoal for grills. These get thrown away when they either have too many holes to maintain the draft, or they just will not hold up a few pounds of charcoal. The junk welds are not life critical. The key is to just barely start the charcoal so they don't get red hot and the charcoal finishes in the grill. Eventually, you just have to bite the bullet and go and buy another one. :(

[Mainely,Bob]

As stated above,in shipyards this is called "slugging" and if you`re caught at it then you get to gouge the whole weld out and start over.Not up to any standards other than farm standards or oilfield work(when nobody`s looking).
If you need strength then use a backer or better yet,learn to fit properly.

For junk work there are no rules so do what you like.Just don`t think techniques like this are acceptable for anything but junk.

[JeremyP]

I've never come across this in my time welding. Even if you had a large hole to fill in thin material I cant
see ever needing to use this 'trick'. This 'trick' will always result in a poor weld because when you start trying to introduce
extra material in the weld zone you first need to penetrate the protective slag which the electrode coating is providing during the weld.
Even if your just letting globule drops into the puddle you are still doing two harmful things. Your adding extra metal, which is colder than weld puddle causing anything from too much buildup to a cold shut. The second thing your doing is distrubing the protective slag coating that sits on top of the molten metal during the weld. This slag is supposed to be drawing impurities from the weld as well as protect the weld from oxidizing. By dropping material into it from an outside source you risk causing slag inclusions and oxidation in the weld.

I would just say no

I'm curious though, how does the weld look after this 'trick' is used?

[J W Bennett]

Been around farms and gravel pits all my life. I first saw this done when I was probably 12 or 13(37-38 years ago). No I've never used it on structural steel but I have patched holes and filled gaps using this technique. I usually use the same filler rod as the stinger rod. If you turn the amps up a little it works good for field repairs. Sometimes you don't have what you need so you make do with what you have. I always use a glove on the hand with the second rod so never got bit. Mig wasn't as available then as it is now and tig was something we only read about. Patched a lot of material bins this way and ran lots of material through them long after the repair was done.
Of course we didn't worry about xray, test and inspectors either. I used to do work for a guy who had a fairly large apple orchard and one of his favorite saying when he'd patch something with less than approved techniques was "poor people have poor ways" But he worked that orchard all his life and never killed or hurt anyone. Maybe he was lucky.
Anyway it has worked for me in the past and I'm sure will again in the future.

John

[JerryCarroll]

I've only been welding 'bout 50 years and have never seen this "extra rod" technic. 7018 rod is recommended with the flux removed. My book sez most common rods are mild steel and the flux composition is what makes the difference in how it works. If I use this method could I not use bailing wire for the filler? Just a thought :unsure:

[jason0012]

Never seen this? Wow, you all have worked some pretty upstanding places that actually believe in doing things right and probably fit parts properly for welding! I always called this abomination a hillbilly tig. I have had to fill in some pretty monstrous gaps using this process. Sometimes even with 3-4 rods! In field welding I have often encountered gaps over 1" and with a foreman getting all pissy about the time you do whatever to get a passable weld. I also want to add that this works best with a rod that can cover its own flux like 6010/6011. I have a deep and personal hatred for 7018 ! I have been certified in globber rod for more than two decades and hate 7018 more every time I use it!( I have often wondered why it seems that every job I go on insists that we use 7018 when there are so many better alternatives?)

[Mainely,Bob]

Hey Jason,do you understand what the numbers on those rod cans mean?
Just asking because around here 6011 is called "junkyard rod" and in most small boatyards anything goes.
The most simple weld certification you can pass requires you to weld 7018 both vertical and overhead.There`s a reason for that.
I once worked with an old Russian welder on the maintenance crew in an aluminum extrusion plant.He`d weld on live hydraulic lines because the foreman didn`t want to shut the press down.I refused to do the same as I like my skin the way it is as opposed to badly burned.The Russian felt I wasn`t a "real welder" as he had been getting away with welding on running presses for better than 15 years.6 months later he was up on the Mibert press welding a shear line when the operator hit the shear.The flames blew him off the press and burned a good percentage of his upper body.If his helper hadn`t slammed into him on his way down he would have snapped his neck and died when he hit the press foundation.As it was he was just crippled for life.He always used 6010 on the hydraulic lines because they were "always oily" and he didn`t want to clean them off.
I feel the foreman who kept telling him to weld on running equipment because "that press makes over $1000 an hour" was at least 50% to blame for his fate.The other 50% was his own fault.
I`ve worked the oil fields and in shipyards and can still count to 10 on my own fingers and have all my toes.No one has ever been hauled away in an ambulance because of anything I worked on or did.I knew when to say no and when to stand up to an ignorant foreman willing to risk others life and limb.
If you want to keep all your body parts and care about your fellow workers learn what the numbers on the cans mean and also learn to tune out the foreman and do a right job you can be proud of.

[Bryce Masuk]

I have seen guys holding extra rods in hand but usually its because they are in confined spaces and cant reach more rods,

some guys have them so they can weld nearly without stopping with a stick

this stig trick sounds about as intelligent as loading numerous rods into the stinger and welding with all of them at once you might as well use a bigger rod and its probley cheaper that way too

and slugging is common place in the shipyards

the fitters dont weld they just fit and the welder has to weld it they could careless about a I 1/2 inch gap GOOD LUCK filling that with a stick

imagine the stress on the boat after you welded a 1/2 inch gap once it shrink's there will be hell to pay but like I said its common place engineers must account for this somehow otherwise nearly every large boat would be at the bottom of the ocean

[Mainely,Bob]

Bruce,

You won`t see any slugging in the shipyards in Maine,at least none that I`ve worked in.
It is strictly forbidden by ABS,the Coast Guard and especially the Navy.If the vessel works offshore or carries passengers then all major structural work must pass ABS inspection.
All the shipyards I worked in handled gaps and sloppy fit ups by using either ceramic backing or a steel backer bar and then the backer was cut back,the root pass gouged out and the other side welded.If ceramic or a backer bar couldn`t cover it then a new piece was cut and fit,by a competent fitter this time.
I always took the approach that my welds were all that stood between people and possible death.Doesn`t make any difference whether that weld was holding a frame member on a motorcycle or a boat I built if that weld failed the results could be catastrophic for someone.
All the welders I know(myself included)take thier work very seriously and always look to improve their skills and keep up their certifications and stay on top of new techniques and equipment.Those who didn`t were not welders,they were "rod burners".Just guys who knew enough to stick 2 pieces of metal together and hope they didn`t come apart before they could cash their paychecks.I`ve been on crews who had to go in and repair or salvage what was left after a "rod burner`s" work failed.If you know a process is substandard how can you in good conscience pass it off as OK or do it even once never mind more than once?
Look at it this way,would you use this technique if you son or daughter had to work in that area every day afterward?If not then why is someone else`s child worth less than yours?
If you still use slugging or any other questionable techniques on structure or critical weldments then my advice to you is don`t let a real welder catch you doing it,it`ll cost you your job at the very least.Many of us have family in the Coast Guard and Navy.
I`ll hand the soapbox off now,I`m sure somebody else can use it.

BTW-I`ve also been involved in "art projects" as a craftsman working for conceptual artists.The job shop I worked in after hours picked up a job making a large piece of art called "The rapsody of the sea" for a major cruise line`s flagship.All the material for that piece had to meet ABS spec and I had to update my certification in order to weld it.
It`s my understanding that most public art of any scale requires a certified welder these day to avoid liability problems.