aches and pains - looking for advice.

[Sam Falzone]

Greetings all,
Turns out I'm developing all manner of aches and pains in my elbows and shoulders. Hurts when I'm working and not working. Elbows hurt when I'm carrying things, even when I'm driving. Doctor says it's tennis-elbow (tendonitis?). I made myself a leather compression brace for my forearm and wrist on my hammer hand. I'm also looking into researching better hammer techniques.

Question #1: Can anyone suggest some good sources / literature for different hammer techniques (like Hofi's technique)?

Question #2: Can anyone recommend some good exercises for my arm and shoulder? Any stretches or weight-training to rehab the muscles and tendons?

Sam.

[JohnW]

#2 -- No I can't recommend. Aches and pains usually require inactivity, or at least less activity to get better. But then once healed your elbow will probably be stronger. I don't know about your shoulder. I'd say elbows are tougher than shoulders.

#1 -- Be deliberate, be acurate. Maybe get a bigger hammer (or use plenty big hammer) and slow you're pace.

[Glenn]

STOP !! It should not hurt if you do things correctly.

Adjust your standing location and anvil location to be level and smooth.
Adjust the height of your anvil to a proper working height.
Adjust the anvil face to level in all directions.

Lay the hammer on the anvil (crib up under the handle if needed so the hammer stands on it's own).
Stand so that you HAND is in line with the hammer handle. This will mean moving your body to align your hand with the hammer.
Step closer or farther away from the anvil so your HAND can comfortably grasp the hammer, without bending over and or reaching.


BP1001 Hofi Hammer Technique
BP1002 Hofi Hammer Technique

[chyancarrek]

I developed the ol' tennis elbow (both arms) decades ago working in a furniture factory and it's raised it's "head" repeatedly over the years of my forging. At times its completely debilitating and I can't even kept a frying pan steady in my hand.

I've run the gamut from long rest periods, stretches, clinic physical therapies, self applied exercises and even electro-stimulated steroid treatments.

It's chronic for me now so don't take it lightly or let it go on too long before going back to your doc and getting advice for whatever level of therapies you may need.

Looking at your forging techniques is definitely way up on the list of changes to make but even something as simple as always driving while resting your elbow on the window sill of the door can have a negative impact.

Also, be careful to not depend on the compression braces - they can mask the damage being done and only add to the problem!

Good luck - let us know how you make out!

Edited August 31, 2009 by chyancarrek

[Rob Browne]

Might sound strange but see if you can find a good sport doctor in your area. As opposed to normal doctors who will simply say STOP and take these pills a sport doctor will analyse your activities, build, movements, etc and generally will have a better outcome than a normal GP. Be warned though, often the answer is lots of exercises and retraining your movements, hard work.

[Mick]

Let me start by saying I do not advocate diagnosis by internet - and I do not endorse any practitioner other than the particular one I use.

After many years abusing my body on the tools as a builder I had developed severe tendonitis in both elbows, (tennis and golfers combined). Two or three hours with a hammer would near cripple me for the next 2 - 3 weeks. I also had an old (3 years) wrist injury from a ladder fall, which would react the same.

I was referred to a Bowen therapist, the treatment was excruciating at the time but 2 years later I have had no recurrence of the elbow pain / tendonitis, and needed one tune up of the wrist. This guy has also fixed my sciatic pain and I see him once or twice a year to fix up the results of my bad posture and assorted body abuse, he also works on our horses with incredible results.

Bye the bye I do not follow alternate therapies, navel gazing, sniffology or any such, and I was sceptical before seeing this guy. All I can say is it worked for me and it might be worth your while looking into it.

Good luck and I hope you can find relief for the pain.

[nc_cooter]

At age 63 I have a lot of aches. I used to suffer with "tennis elbow" and a bad rotator cuff. Two years ago I fell from a ladder and crushed my clavicle. When healed, the x-ray looked like Picasso designed it. My orthopedic surgeon,also a knife customer, told me my forging days were over. Well, he was wrong.
Thanks to Hofi's hammer and hammer technique, I am able to forge knives again. It took a lot of time and practice. Had to adjust my anvil height and I beat up a lot of mild steel in the practice. Some have suggested using a piece of wood to practice hammer control. You can't forge wood and it's not the same. Heat some scrap steel and practice on that.
I no longer suffer from tendinitis and the rotator cuff only limits what I can do overhead. Some of my friends say I am forging even better than before.

[thecelticforge]

One thing I do to give my arm a rest is to use a larger hammer. I change how I strike also. I let gravity do the work and use my back muscles to raise the hammer. My arm becomes more a lever at that point than a source of power..

[CBrann]

Hammer technique, can't help you, as far as treating the pain you have, see a doctor, physical therapist, kinseologist or sports medicine. Also do you stretch before forging? You should, doctor can help with that too.

You seem like you have a lot of work to do to be able to keep working,
good luck
cliff

[Dale Russell]

G'Day all , 1 thing that ain't been said is " warming up to your work "

You don't see a pro footballer just walk onta the ground & play . Cricketers / Baseballers / Golfers / Swimers " all " do some sort of warm up before playing their sport .

What i do is make a leaf , 1 , it's something small to get myself warmed up on , 2 , it's a good practice piece .
Got this idea From Strine , best thing ever ( thanks mate )

Also try thinning down your hammer handle , if it's overly thick it'll cause no end of problems to your wrists / elbows

And the idea of going to a heavier hammer while injured is wrong ( IMHO ) Your only putting more stress on the injured areas ( I may get shouted down over that point , but you don't give an injured weight lifter more weight then he normaly lifts after he just hurt his back / arm's / legs lifting a lighter weight )

Dale Russell

[David Einhorn]

To sum up the key points that folks have made:

- Purchase a set of Hofi hammers and use his ergonomic technique to reduce chances of further injury to elbows and shoulders.
- Make sure that your anvil height is correct. Too many smiths don't stand straight, instead they bend over their anvils and go ding ding ding. So stand up and correct your anvil height and how you stand, and instead go pound pound pound.
- Bowen therapy works for my wife. Can't afford it for myself, and the long drive to get there would kill my arms.
- If it hurts then STOP, because you are doing it wrong.
- Repetitive motion injuries are a matter of repeatedly doing a motion *wrong*, so going to a doctor for pills is not likely to help prevent further damage. Whatever a doctor or therapist does for you must be combined with fixing the cause of your injury, the stance and motion of hammering wrong.

Disclaimer: I am not a medical expert, just someone who has hurt himself at both sports and previous employment, and passes on a weeee bit of personal experience. :D

[bsiler]

Thanks for all the good information in this thread.
Things we all need to think about and keep in mind.

As a carpenter now for 30+++++ years I've had elbow problems. Very painful to say the least.
I had always used a 16oz hammer for framing and trimming. Changed to a 13oz and have not had hardly
any problem since (that was 15....20 years ago maybe)except the cold hard fact of getting old (older!!).

Thanks for the thread,
Billy

Edited August 31, 2009 by bsiler

[Sam Falzone]

Thanks for all the good advice folks - and don't worry - I wasn't really looking for a diagnosis just some advice if any others had or are going through the same thing ... but I wouldn't treat anything mentioned on a forum as scripture. But good advice could point me in a good direction .

The first thing is going to be taking a good look at my anvil set-up. Then hammering technique !!!

Glenn - will there be a fall order for Hofi hammers? I've always thought they looked like a good hammer but the price was too high for me. Now I have to consider the price of not smithing anymore ... not acceptable. Does the hammer come with the literature telling how to use it properly or is that something separate? Is there a video?

Sam

[keithgartner]

How often do you hammer iron? If you just get in the shop on week-ends or less, and don't warm up as Dale suggested, and excersize the muscles you need for smithing, that could be your only problem. Is your anvil between knuckles and wrist when standing erect? Are you getting steel hot enough to move with-out excessive hammering? Are you swinging with your shoulder?

[urnesBeast]

To sum up the key points that folks have made:

- Purchase a set of Hofi hammers and use his ergonomic technique to reduce chances of further injury to elbows and shoulders.
- Make sure that your anvil height is correct. Too many smiths don't stand straight, instead they bend over their anvils and go ding ding ding. So stand up and correct your anvil height and how you stand, and instead go pound pound pound.

So, I am part of the way there. I have the hofi hammer, and I am soon to be mounting my anvil. Especially with a Hofi hammer, I am not sure what the proper height of the anvil face is.

I have searched the site here, but "Anvil height" gives a lot of wrong hits.

I have gathered that it should be 'knuckle height when standing straight and arms extended down." I however have three joints on every finger. Which is the proper height?

I note that some tripod stands allow your feet underneath the anvil, but stumps do not. Is that a feature or not really important?

-Doug

[fat pete]

sometimes holding your hammer and tongs hurts u....it comes from grabbing your tools like you wanta choke them....your should be throwing your hammer at the anvil you realy only grab it hard enuff to lift it....your tongs will hold the piece with less pressure than you think...but if you hold these tools for dear life you will get sore arms elbows...relax when you bang dont get all tensed up.. lift that hammer like its your friend and tell it where to hit..... dont muscle things....if you got pain when you arent banging lay off a little while till you heal up....then do the stretchig and warm up like said earlier i make a couple hooks before i go wild....loossen up it helps

[Mark Emig]

The biggest part about not hurting yourself when hammering is DON'T squeeze the handle tightly. I use just enough grip so the hammer doesn't fly across the room. If you grip it tightly when hammering all the shock of the blow goes up the hammer handle into your arm and you end up sore.
Mark

[Glenn]

I am soon to be mounting my anvil. Especially with a Hofi hammer, I am not sure what the proper height of the anvil face is.
-Doug

Stand next to the anvil with a fist. Your first bone from the knuckle toward the end of the finger should rest flat on the anvil face. This is only a STARTING POINT. Place a piece of wood on the anvil and hit the wood with the hammer. If the crescent curves toward you (round side away) then the anvil is too low. If the crescent curves away from you (round side toward you) then the anvil is too high. Proper height is a full circle meaning the hammer is hitting flat on the anvil face. For me this is the height of the anvil face equal to the break of the wrist, or about 3 inches above knuckle high. YMMV. The anvil face will also change for a striker, and for the type work you do.

[Ecart]

http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f7/belly-buttons-wings-things-13559/

This is a thread that helped me out a lot. I found that I was standing in more of a fighter's stance at the anvil. I squared up my stance and I take full swings at the work now. I also found a problem at the day job that I fixed. A handle on a machine that I use all day was in need of some adjustment. I found that every time I used it my shoulder screamed at me. I made the adjustment there and almost all of the pain is gone now.

I'd certainly recommend someone like a Sports Dr. Somebody who can help you with exercises that will rehab the injured area and will help you to avoid reinjury. Also, as has been mentioned, pay attention to how you are working. If changes are needed, MAKE THEM! It will save you lots of pain.

[pkrankow]

I'm still learning here.

Why would Hofi method require a Hofi hammer? What about the HAMMER makes a difference?

I also noticed no one mentioned that the size of your work will change the "perfect" height of your anvil.

Phil

[Glenn]

Once you have the basics, then you can fine tune the anvil height to your needs. Thin tin will take a different anvil and anvil height then if you are using 3 inch stock, or are using a striking hammer. Adjust as needed.

The Hofi hammer has several advantages, but the technique can be used on any hammer.

[element]

I suggest getting the hofi hammer, Once you start hammering it feels weightless and so well balanced.I tried the hoffi technique on other hammers but it just dont work good and my arm get tired much quicker.

[pkrankow]

Where does the Hofi hammer balance? With the concentrated mass of a hammer head I expect the balance is affected more by the shape and length of the handle than the shape of the head, for hammers of similar size. I would also not be surprised if the hammer balances inside of the hammer head.

I cannot justify the cost of a Hofi hammer at my stage of learning.

I just picked up a couple of Truper cross peen hammers, 2# for $5.49, 3# for $6.49, new. I am planning on adjusting the hammers to suit, starting with the peen, one is 1/4 inch round at best, and the other is thinner. I scribed a line at 3/8 inch width expecting that after its rounded it will be close to 1/2 inch diameter. Everything I have read seems to state 1/2 inch round on the peen is desirable for regular work. Is there a reason to be significantly wider or thinner for a general use hammer? I'll await a response before grinding.

The handle is fat enough I can shape it almost all the way to the head on both hammers. It is also too fat for my comfort. I have read about how Hofi makes handles in his blueprint. I have used antique framing hammers with a similar shape of handle, it is easier to control. The blueprint also states that he starts with a 12 inch blank, how long is the handle on a finished hammer? Is a large part of the Hofi method using the hammer relatively close to the head?

For adjusting anvil height I have read that some people work on a step (the smith is higher to the anvil) to set the anvil lower, so they can step down from the step to be closer to their work. Other than the obvious trip/fall hazard with the step, how good is this idea? Grossly adjusting the height of a stump is not quick and easy, yet making a wide movable step is quite easy, especially since you can put it away when not needed. Blocking up the anvil requires stopping work to adjust, even though with a small (<100#) anvil it is still easy.

Still learning, Thank you.

Phil

[Sam Falzone]

Well,
Ordered my first Hofi hammer today.
The forged 2.75lb
Can't wait to get it.
Next, learn how to use it.
And I need to look over my shop set-up now (... once I rebuild it ... don't ask :mad:)

Sam

[Frank Turley]

I'm the same age as Uri Hofi, but I started forging much earlier, beginning in 1963. I was presenter of a smithing workshop at Haystack School in 1981, and one of the students, Mary Greene, showed us a ChengManChing tai chi chuan short-form, and said that anyone interested could meet daily before breakfast for an introduction. When I returned home, I found a teacher who worked with the same form.

I have been doing it ever since. It has to do with deep breathing and relaxation. It's good to do before breakfast. Much later, I learned a related method called Chi Kung (Qi Gong). Now I do both. I think it has helped keep me going. I will be demonstrating some of it and talking about it at a St. Louis workshop for BAM, November 21-22.