jgourlay Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Gents: Apologies in advance for the long question! After many years of planning and scheming, I am finally able to set up a VERY SMALL blacksmithing space. I know in advance this space is way too small to be optimal, but I'd appreciate some suggestions. I don't plan on doing architectural iron. This setup has two purposes: edge tools (chisels, carving gouges, knives) and facilitating my young son's interest in the craft. It won't be great, but it's what I can get! The space is just under 6' wide x 10' long. The 10' length runs North/South. There is a door in the southwest corner, and a window in the South wall. Wall height is 8' w/gable roof. Now, I have another workspace that is larger, but it is of such a nature that I can never have any fire of any type for any reason in it. But it does house a lathe, grinder, bandsaw, other tools of that type. So though I would LIKE to have these close to the anvil, I don't need to fit them in the forging space. I'm right handed. Given the size and layout of the space, and where the light and air come from, I am having a hard time figuring out where the forge and anvil should be positioned. Also, ventilation is a concern. I can penetrate the roof as needed, and I can drywall/steel sheath the walls as needed: this is a 2x4/OSB room. I've been thinking that downdraft forge may be best. I've seen (ye olde) pictures of them, but don't find any modern references. How do you all think I should lay this out? Also, any specific suggestions about a coal/coke forge would be appreciated. Note that I have easy access to 3100 degree castable hardface and 2600 and 2800 degree rated castable insulating refractory. Thus, I can build things (a forge?) able to resist fire if building my own forge looks to be the best option.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisG Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) wow! thats a question. my two cents..... I can't wait for the replies on this as I have an 8'X10' space to build in too. I do have a forge and anvil though, oh and I am left handed. Hope the guys can answer this. Will you and your son be working in the area at the same time or just him? Can the two spaces be joined but separated by a sliding door or is there volatile fumes present? For your hood on the forge http://www.appaltree.net/aba/images/sd%20hood.GIF . hope some of this helps. Dennis PS. just tried my tablet to draw something out, (sorry it looks like do-do but I tried) maybe that will help you decide or help others to see it, not sure. Edited August 22, 2009 by DennisG made me a pic to go with it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterDE4 Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 If I were setting it up, I'd put the forge in the northwest corner. Putting it where the direct sunlight can hit it will impede your ability to read the fire and the color of the material you're heating. I'd also position the anvil on the east wall so that I could pull a piece out of the forge, swivel 90 degrees to my right, and have the anvil right in front of me. Assuming that you have electricity, a 12" shutter mount exhaust fan in the north gable end would be a good idea. By opening the window on the south side, you can pull in fresh air while pushing out smoke and fumes out the same end as the forge. Just my $.02. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 In the Hofi blueprints is a simple side-draft arrangementBP1048 Side Draft Chimney | Blueprints 1000 Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkC Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 (edited) We had an industrial pipe cutter at my uncle's fence company. It was (necessarily) mounted about 15 feet from an exterior wall . . . well, we worked with 20 foot lengths of pipe. He cut a hole in the wall and put in a 2' x 2' "doggie door" about waist high, the height of the cutter. If we had to cut a long piece, we'd open the little door and slide the pipe right on through the wall. Something to think about. Installing a small door in the wall opposite your anvil. Give you more options if you need to work on something long. Edited August 23, 2009 by MarkC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welder19 Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 I like the door idea Mark, very useful in tight quarters. welder19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 I like the door idea Mark, very useful in tight quarters. welder19 I have also heard people install windows in crucial spots so that long stuff can extend out windows, or door(s). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Well here is my idea. If there is space around the building I would look at having a large side door that I could open the entire side of the building up --like a flip up garage door. The door would then become a roof , and with the anvil / forge on a wheelbarrow type stand it could be moved outside. The door could have welding curtains attached to make walls. A 6'x10' is fairly tight for one person let alone two. I am thinking safety also. If you are in the back AWAY from the door, and a fire gets started you need to be able to get out. All of the smithing my Dad and I did at home was just done in the backyard out in the open, usually in the evenings when it was darker. That is kinda what I am looking to do on my place, more of an open air setup. Although with the winds that we get around here I will probably have to have some sort of a walled area to work behind. Also you can add your specific location to your profile, so we know where you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 i like the idea of a side opening on the shop... in fact that is how mine is setup but it depends on your climate... where do you live ?if it is in a relatively mild climate you can use the buildig for sorage of tools and forge outside... its not too small for a shop but real small for 2 ... it also is harder to vent a smal shop satisfactorly.. if you dont use propane forge you should go with coke (a LOT less smoke)rather than coal .. that small a shop would be hard to use otherwise.especially on startup.having said that the main components of a shop should fit (anvil forge postvice ) good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Blacksmithing, like cooking, has a "Work Triangle". In smithing it is the Forge-Anvil-Postvise especially when working small items you want these to be withing a "turn" of each other or at most a turn and 1 step. I suggest you get some sidewalk chalk and lay out a suggested set-up and then try moving around in it remembering you don't want to feed your tongs/elbows into the forge zone when using the other items. (even better if you can manage it is to get some boxes the right size and put them in place and holding a piece of stock in a pair of tongs try to maneuver around in it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urnesBeast Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 (edited) I asked a similar question here:http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f7/shop-layout-ideas-wanted-12757/ I had a 10x12 to start. It burned to the ground. I replaced it with with the 10x19 in the thread above (still constructing as of Aug 2009). The original is twice the size you are talking about, but for just plain forging I was really only using 1/3 the space anyways. I recommend the Hofi side draft chimney. Made a drawing of what I propose. A second post vice for dad (or a machinist vice on Dad's side) would work out pretty well too. I also attached pic of a small smithy at an old mill house. It was mostly "fake" (I looked inside when smith was not there, from the scrap I saw around, he only made s-hooks for tourists) the hardy tools were too big for the anvil, so I know most of it was "for show". It was big enough to house the important stuff, though he was primarily outdoors while forging. This is attached design is similar to how I worked when having a guest smith. -dougGents: Apologies in advance for the long question! After many years of planning and scheming, I am finally able to set up a VERY SMALL blacksmithing space. I know in advance this space is way too small to be optimal, but I'd appreciate some suggestions. I don't plan on doing architectural iron. This setup has two purposes: edge tools (chisels, carving gouges, knives) and facilitating my young son's interest in the craft. It won't be great, but it's what I can get! The space is just under 6' wide x 10' long. The 10' length runs North/South. There is a door in the southwest corner, and a window in the South wall. Wall height is 8' w/gable roof. Now, I have another workspace that is larger, but it is of such a nature that I can never have any fire of any type for any reason in it. But it does house a lathe, grinder, bandsaw, other tools of that type. So though I would LIKE to have these close to the anvil, I don't need to fit them in the forging space. I'm right handed. Given the size and layout of the space, and where the light and air come from, I am having a hard time figuring out where the forge and anvil should be positioned. Also, ventilation is a concern. I can penetrate the roof as needed, and I can drywall/steel sheath the walls as needed: this is a 2x4/OSB room. I've been thinking that downdraft forge may be best. I've seen (ye olde) pictures of them, but don't find any modern references. How do you all think I should lay this out? Also, any specific suggestions about a coal/coke forge would be appreciated. Note that I have easy access to 3100 degree castable hardface and 2600 and 2800 degree rated castable insulating refractory. Thus, I can build things (a forge?) able to resist fire if building my own forge looks to be the best option. Edited August 24, 2009 by urnesBeast Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 The good thing is you want to make blades so you could work from a large closet with some planning. A fellow I used to talk to online made some very nice blades on the 4' x 6' balcony on his 4th floor retirement condo in Fla. His entire kit fit in two duffle bags, two to keep the weight managable. A lot of your work is going to be on the bench and in vises. I'd put the bench under the window for natural light and fresh air. If you have a belt grinder it'll need good light too and a good way to collect the sparks and dust. The forge for making blades can be very compact, especially if you use a propane forge. The Don Fogg vertical cylinder was designed specifically for knife making and has a number of advantages. One is a relatively small footprint. When I've done small pieces like but not, knives I like putting the forge on the far side of the anvil so I can draw the steel out and straight down to the anvil. The slack tub went under the horn though now I'd put it under the heal, especially if I were ding any punching or drifting. The post vise would've gone on my left less than 90* from the anvil forge line and within reach. I never needed a post vise in the couple situations I worked this close. Anyway, virtually all my hot working tools could be reached without moving my feet though a half step made working comfortable. A space less than 6' x 6' would suffice and even be spacious with some planning and tweeking. Remember, what you want to do is small in size, you could probably put a couple weeks worth of stock in a 5 gl bucket. 6' x 10' won't be extravagant but it can certainly be comfortable and efficient for both of you. If you decide to start making gates you'll need a larger space. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I would suggest keeping the concept of a work triangle in mind, as well as: - putting in two anvils, one for each of you. - putting a vise on a heavy table within your work triangle. That way you don't have to walk to your vise, the table provides a stable mounting point, and tools are handy on the table. I use a 2 by 2' angle iron table, with a 1/4" steel plate top. - being able to reach the quench bucket without having to walk around your vise. See the sketch that I modified. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divermike Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 If your son will be working with you, it does not mean you will be doing the same thing at the same time, I would suggest just one work station, having helping hands is great, so area to move in is a premium with 2 people. And if no one has told you yet, most of the knife work does not revolve around the forge, but rather, the grinding and finishing area. My son and I work well together because I can be there when he is forging to assist and encourage, and he to hold things for me when I forge. I applaud your efforts, it is wonderful to have your son in the forge, and when the 1st knife is done, then the fun begins, because if he is anything like mine, oooooooo lookout!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 (edited) I guess that to sum things up, it all comes down to the function of your shop. The saying goes, "form follows function". If you are absolutely *only* going to make knives and nothing else, then a small forge, small anvil, bucket, a vise, a small table and a sander-grinder (or files) is all you need and the setup to match. However, if you plan on doing things like dragon heads that require tooling and a vise within easy reach of the forge, then your set-up will be different. My personal bias, and I recognize it as a bias, is to design my workspace to allow me to do as many categories of forging as possible. But again that is my bias. The first step in the design is to determine whether your are absolutely only going to forge knives and nothing else. Once you have the function, then the layout will follow. Added note: I put a length of angle iron between the front legs of table/stands so that I can use a handtruck to move them if and when I need to change the arrangement. Edited August 25, 2009 by UnicornForge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Here is a one-man, with helper, forging station. (see attached) The differences between it and your original design, is that you don't have to climb over the anvil to reach the bucket, and that a vise is added to the table within arms reach of the anvil and forge. Anvil, forge, bucket and vise would all be within your work triangle, and you or your father could either help or work at the finishing station. Don't forget to make one or even two knife vises to mount in your stationary vises. (see attached) :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 UF, could you post a couple pics of that knife makers vice in action? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobinbama Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 If your son will be working with you, it does not mean you will be doing the same thing at the same time, I would suggest just one work station, having helping hands is great, so area to move in is a premium with 2 people. And if no one has told you yet, most of the knife work does not revolve around the forge, but rather, the grinding and finishing area. My son and I work well together because I can be there when he is forging to assist and encourage, and he to hold things for me when I forge. I applaud your efforts, it is wonderful to have your son in the forge, and when the 1st knife is done, then the fun begins , because if he is anything like mine, oooooooo lookout!! I think denvermike is spot on. When we set up our shop it was for me and my son - two anvils, etc. We soon realized that there was really no need for a set up for two. My son and I work well together just as Mike stated above and just as he said it is wonderful to have your son in the forge, and when the 1st knife is done, then the fun begins. bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkC Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 oh my lord, i'm just gonna pretend i didnt read that a guy was forging on a condo balcony. talk about "against the fire code". in my jurisdiction we'd tar and feather the man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 oh my lord, i'm just gonna pretend i didnt read that a guy was forging on a condo balcony. talk about "against the fire code". in my jurisdiction we'd tar and feather the man. Sounds scary doesn't it? He used a bean can forge and Bernzomatic torch. Without a doubt less likely to start a fire than someone using the same torch to make creme broulee let alone solder some plumbing fittings. He was a great guy but I haven't heard anything from him in years. I hope he's okay. Maybe he moved to Mass and is in prison for using his forge? Could you ask around please? Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 UF, could you post a couple pics of that knife makers vice in action? Phil Well, visualize a knife blade, either end stuck between the two wooden blocks while you work on the other end. Sorry, but I don't have pictures, and I don't have a video camera. One handle tightens the two blocks against the blade. The other handle loosens the pressure against the inner piece of pipe so that it can rotate, then tightens against the inner pipe to lock it back in position. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkC Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 (edited) HAHA will do, frosty. I'll see if I can track him down. Now that ya mention it, all the grill-on-porch fires I've had involved drunken morons and not skilled artisans. lol Edited August 26, 2009 by MarkC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 UF, I couldn't see the cut in the dowel when I first looked. I see it now. Very simple device there, I am sure it saves a lot of frustration. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.