Old welder and ... family politics

[pkrankow]

Hi, Got a pickle.
I am looking for a welder for occasional use, and am comfortable enough on mig or stick for my current needs. I used a Lincoln tombstone in class, mfg processes. In my mother in law's garage is an old dayton stick welder. I took a pic of it with my camera phone and it is barely legible. It is a

Dayton model 12798 --- 3.5 kva (I think)

115-230 VOLTS --50-60 cycle

Max output 100 amps

Dayton Elec. Mfg. Co.

Made in U.S.A.

and I can't read the rest of the photo, nor can I post it tonight. I'll try to post it tomorrow. It has 3 sockets on the left of the nameplate, and 2 sockets on the right. The unit is the size of a large but short (about 18 inches long and about 8 inches tall) metal toolbox, and has a lid to hold some welding supplies, there are a few partial boxes of sticks even. It is covered in rust, but looks like surface rust. It has been stored in a location of questionable water tightness for several years, but has been bragged as a good machine before that. The last few years has been in a "dry" garage on the concrete floor. It was my wife's grandfather's welder.

Here's the fun part: It is free, but if it doesn't work I will offend people by either returning it to the mother-in-law's garage, or scrapping it. If it doesn't work my brother in law will have some grief as _he_ could have scrapped it, and I will have grief as he will want to borrow it from time to time after I make it usable. My wife's uncle and mother may also have grief if I tell them it's broken and I can't fix it.

To find out if it works, I may need to change the cord because it is a plug that looks like four 1/4 inch round studs and I have never seen this type before. I also currently lack a 220 outlet in my workspace, but I intend to pull a 50 amp circuit for a welder, and have spoken to an electrician about how to rough it in.

Now, to practical:
I understand that stick welders are very simple inside and have very few parts to go bad. This unit having no rheostat makes it even more simple. I know there is a stinger (?) cord, a ground cord and a power cord to this unit. I did not look close enough to verify the condition of the connectors or cords, but the cords seemed supple and not cracking. If the unit is fully functional, or easy to make fully functional, I can deal with the brother-in-law part. I am more worried about the older generation being offended if the unit is broken beyond repair.

If I could find information and wiring diagrams for this unit I would be more comfortable touching it. The operating labels on the unit are gone. Right now I would be guessing what socket did what to start with.

So, should I touch it and try to use it or leave it be as a family heirloom?

If I put both leads into "hot" or "ground" what would happen? or are all socket hot to some extent on this unit and I simply select the potential change I need?

If I take reasonable precautions for welding and the unit is bad how much risk of injury do I have?

I guess I need an owner's manual and a service manual, or the next best thing.

I did say it was a pickle.

Phil

[David Einhorn]

Personally I try to avoid family drama therefor any situation where family would get upset or want to "borrow" something, I tend to avoid. I would suggest leaving it as the family heirloom.

[Dragons lair]

My 2 cents, Ask what they want done with it if it can't be fixed. I tell any borrower
You break it or lose it you fix it or replace it. As to the unit you may find the schematic
inside the cover, The 5 sockets are amperage taps. Plug the stinger in one of those.
Probably lowest on bottom left. Highest on top right. Clean out spiders and things.
Clean connectors should work. Scrap the rods(too old and damp) Doubt you can find a manual for it. Good luck.
Ken

[Charlotte]

Maybe Steve Sells can tell you for sure but I think it may be a three phase welder.

If it is it may be possible to take out part of the circut and run it as a regular 220. I've seen that done on some Lincoln industrial boxes.
I think I would be worried about having enough juice to pull that load in my house.

[Tobago]

Phil,

Ken made some fine points. Ask them what they want done if it's not fixable. Then do that if it becomes the case.

Excelsior,
Ted

[welder19]

If it has 4 prongs on the plug then it is 3 phase, but it may be able to be set up single phase but I don't know enough to guide you through it.
If they are sentimental as you say about something like that then I would say leave that dog alone.....so as you don't get bit.

welder19

[Thomas Dean]

You can pick up a used welding machine off of craigslist, eBay, farm auctions ect cheaper than you can mend family fences. For what you are wanting in a machine I believe you would be able to find something fairly cheap in the above venues. As mentioned several times in above post...leave that sleeping dog lay...

[pkrankow]

Alright, I am at the correct computer to do uploads. Sadly only one pic came out looking like anything other than black.

I have talked to my wife's mother and uncle about other tools that belonged to their father in the past, and they would rather see them used than wasted...but the conversations were about hand tools and stationary tools. There are 2 lathes in her garage that I have been told to take. I need space for them first. One is a metal working lathe that you remove and replace the gears to change speed and feed, (I don't know the brand). The other is a woodworking lathe build using the metal working lathe. It has split timbers for the bed.

I will have to talk to my mother-in-law, etc. about if the machine is not usable.

Since I do not even have a circuit suitable for a welder, I have time to think. I have been told that is has been run on 220 by my father-in-law, but he last used it several years ago. There is little budget to go after a new machine, and the Craigslist welders I can afford go quick.

The biggest concern about the welder is I don't know too much about what is inside and even less about how this unit operates. If I cannot find usable operating instructions, and I had no success with Google, I am uncomfortable trying to set it up by random chance. I would like to also know what would likely happen if I hooked the leads up wrong. I want to avoid becoming cooked turkey. I won't be able to examine the machine and it's contents much more closely unless I bring it home.

Would the old rods be suitable for practice? Or would it be best to just knock the flux off and use them as wire or rod? How much of a problem is moisture in the flux for non-structural welding? Could I bake them for a few hours to dry them out? I would guess excess moisture would cause porosity and inclusions in the weld, but don't know enough.

Maybe leaving it lie will be best, but I haven't reached a decision yet.

Thank you for your time and opinions.

Phil

[Rob Browne]

If its picked up that much rust I would be waiting till I could afford another machine. Electrics, moisture and me don't go well together.

[Charlotte]

At a glance at that I think salvage for the copper is the right move.

[Bentiron1946]

Find another machine for yourself and let your brother-in-law have the family heirloom. He probably deserves it more than you. Also as rusty as it is I would not want to be in the same room when it is plugged in.;)

[HWooldridge]

Welders are the one commonly found tool that can't be used on a phase converter without major rewiring so best to leave it alone if it is 3ph. However, it's probably 1ph and there is a good chance that it works - tombstone type transformers welders are almost bullet proof. There is either a sliding core inside the windings to control current or there are taps - you indicated there are sockets so it's likely a tap model. These units are usually AC only models but you can get more info from WW Grainger if you provide them with the model number. If anything is kaput, it will likely be the cooling fan and even then it may simply be clogged with mud dauber nests. There ain't much else that goes wrong with them.

Don't try to reuse the old rods - it will be an exercise in frustration. Buy new 1/8" E6011 electrodes and practice on whatever steel you have lying around.

[Dragons lair]

I have seen worse and got them to work. 4 pin plug doesen't mean 3 phase Its marked 115-230 I have never seen 115 3 phase. Basicly its a multi tap transformer. If the ground lead has a pin on the end it would go in holes on the right + - Stinger in left holes
low med hi. Old rods are good for nothing except spraying you with pieces. 2 options for 1st turn on. Turn breaker off plug unit in turn breaker on. Turn breaker off switch unit on
turn breaker on. OR use a long stick.
Ken

[orgtwister]

i've seen worse and have and use worse i have a lincoln buzz box that went through a flood not much left of the metal but the coil is still good welds great for ac as for the plug on it on 220 you have 2 positives 110 wires and 1 common wire(most 220 plugs don't use a ground)it is possible that some one added a ground to it i worked at a body shop years ago and there mig was wired with a ground it confused me at first

[crij]

A 4 wire 220 single phase is not too uncommon for high amp connections. A large amount of generator welders that produce 50 amp 220 single phase have a 4 wire outlet.

The wire connection would be Black (hot [breaker side] 1), red (hot [breaker side] 2), white (common), and green (ground). In an amount of homes the ground and the common are the same wire. Inside the case, the black, red and white should be tied to the transformer and the green would be connected to the chassis/case, this is for your safety, to minimize the possibility of taking a 50 amp AC shock though the case when you go to shut it off.

Rich C.

[sfDuck]

I cleared up the pic a bit and things don't look good but keep on trying till all options are exhausted. Good Luck

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Graingers sells Dayton brand equipment, they have outlets all across the U.S.

It is single phase, since it is 110V-220V

Remove the plug, and you may find that only 3 of the plug pins may have a wire connected to them, seen this before IE; 3 phase plugs used on single phase circuits. Have also seen 3 phase SO cords used on single phase machines with one wire clipped off at each end. Most folks just use a dryer plug, and outlet.

I have used a bit of "old rod". If it isn't too bad it can be dried out, or I have even just upped the amps a little to warm the rod as I welded. The last 4 inches usually gets red by the end of a longer bead, so you just toss that. Not for great welds, but OK in a pinch, or tacking items.

I would look for an AC/DC welder myself since they have more capabilities.

[pkrankow]

I looked at it more closely while doing a water pump on the mother-in-law's car.

There is some paint left on it, the inside of the lid is still painted. There is a stack of very brittle paperwork under the rods that I left alone. The plugs are full of spider nest, the vents are full of spider web too.

The rod looks clean, and some is in sealed paper boxes still.

I still need to install a circuit for a welder to the garage. I am looking for something better. I may revisit this beast later, but not for a while.

Thank you for all your help and opinions.
Phil

[wedwards]

From your first post it appears that whatever you do with the welder is going to ruffle somebody's feathers. It also appears that the welder is still at your MIL's house. Unless all potential family conflict over it is resolved ahead of time (and you are confident it is resolved) I suggest you leave it where it is and walk away. Otherwise even if you get it running nothing good can come of it. Don't ask me how I know this. Good luck.

Bill

[pkrankow]

Turns out that my wife's uncle (uncle-in-law?) owns this welder (and all the tools in the MIL's garage), and felt that I was deserving of it instead of letting it rot. If it proves non-functional it is to be recycled for cash, and that cash applied to expenses for repairs to the MIL's car. (replacing front clip from accident, and broken timing chain that was diagnosed as "blown engine")

The welder is in my garage, with all the cords and wires. It is cleaner than it looks in the first pictures, and more pictures will be forthcoming, but not tonight.

Phil

[Dragons lair]

Phil, After ya clean out the crud in the holes get an approprate size bore brush. Chuck in a drill and polish them.
Boss was gonna toss one cause of bad contacts.
Ken.

[clinton]

I would suggest removing the sheet metal and blowing out the machine with air before you power it up, and I will bet dollars to donuts that the welder works just fine, looks like ac only so select rod that runs on ac current (6011, 7018)

[pkrankow]

There is no bottom to the machine, it looks like there never was, and it is surprisingly clean inside. I'll have pictures this afternoon. It came with some rod and paperwork, so I'll scan and post everything that seems meaningful.
Phil

[pkrankow]

Dragons lair, that worked a treat. I picked up a .38/9mm brass brush, loaded it into the drill and clean! If only i had power.

Phil

[pkrankow]

I got pictures! These pics are about 800K per (2048x1536), so they may take time to dl on a slow connection.

nameplate reads
Dayton
Arc welder
Model 1Z798 - 3.5 KVA
115-230 V - 50-60 cycle A.C.
15-30 Amps. - Max Output 100 Amp

Dayton Elec. Mfg. Co.
Chicago 12 IL
Made in USA

Next post has more pics.
Phil