GNJC Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Hello all, I have been given a free power take off arm by a friend who is upgrading to a newer tractor; the diameter is 1.75 inches. I have already cut off the splined ends, each will be used to make different length / diameter small hardy bicks; I have wanted to make a mini bick for a long time, so I am very happy about this. The question is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Ameling Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Well, the first obvious one would be a bending fork. And then a bottom fuller - kind of like a hot-cutter but with a rounded edge. Plus a straight sided hot-cutter. (I've always intended to make one but haven't - yet.) A hot cutter with a "stop block" on each side to protect your hammer face, and so that you only cut so far through the stock. (like in that nail making thread) A ... WEDGE ... to slip into your hardy and forge against. This helps you create curves when forging between it and the anvil face. Bend a section into an L shape - so that the long section sticks out from the hardy hole and lies right on the anvil face. Then fuller in several sizes/depths of round/square/triangular grooves. Instant bottom swage block. I made one to to tapered triangular pieces - in three stages: one for the point, then the next two getting progressively larger. You get a far more even/true triangular taper that way. Plus you could also then drill/punch a couple holes to make it a "bottom block" when punching holes through other stock. Just a couple ideas to think about. Mikey - that grumpy ol' German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy seale Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 would probobly make good hammers,but if you don't use it soon lable it to what it was so (if your like me) you will remember, stuff like that is always good to have around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
781 Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Suggestions as above plus: bottom swages bridge tool dog bone swage for leaves ect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNJC Posted June 9, 2009 Author Share Posted June 9, 2009 Thanks for the quick replies. Good idea Jimmy, I have a dire memory too! Sorry Mike, I should have noted that I have already made the basic hardy tools (bending fork / horns, hot and cold hardy). Please explain a bit more more about your 'wedge' suggestion, the image I have in mind from it doesn't fit with the use you suggest. I like the fuller idea. Thanks, G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 That size stock would also be good for makeing bolt and rivet headers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Don't get in a hurry to use it all or as soon as the last piece is turned into a hardy tool you THINK will be handy something you actually NEED will come up. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Something that you cann't make with the steel but is incredibly useful and have to buy but is cheap: An Anvil Devil. Just a equilateral shaped bar for cold marking steel. Farriers use them a lot and others that work with smaller sizes of stee. Works like a cold chisel. Lay on the anvil, Hit where you want to mark or cut. Heat and do what you want. Makes it incredibly easy to find that exact point to hot cut, fuller, etc. Don't forget to make a scroll starter as shown By mark Aspry in one of the blue prints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacock Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 before I went to alot of work I would forge a small piece down heat it quench it to see how hard or tough it is. I have several of these around the farm and depending who made them and what for some are fairly low carbon. Most are easy to drill or file. Others are very tough something like 4140 I hope you have a good piece. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 One thing on my list to make is a "butcher edged hardy" as depicted by Mark Aspery. Basically like a cut-off hardy with one edge perpendicular to the anvil face and the edge softened. It is used to make tenons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Ameling Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 The WEDGE idea is simply a double-sided low wedge. One side is drawn out fairly shallow, while the back side wedge is fairly steep. Angles somewhere around a 15 degree slope on the one side, and a 40 to 45 degree slope on the other side. And then a tang to fit down in your hardy hole. That little "ramp" on the end of your anvil face gives you a smooth transition for curving bars - especially when the top of the WEDGE tool is kind of rounded instead of sharp/crisp. With it setting flush with your anvil face and wider than the hardy hole, you have the mass of the anvil backing it up. I'll see if I can get a scan of it and post it. I've used it to form the sides of a frypan out of a disk of sheet iron. Getting that bend up consistent, and keeping the bent up sides smooth/even can be tricky. This helps. Mikey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNJC Posted June 10, 2009 Author Share Posted June 10, 2009 Hello all, Many good ideas so far (more welcome). Mike, from your new description I now have a pretty fair idea of what the wedge should look like, but a photo’ would be very welcome. Such a wedge is a very good option for me since my main interest is making old-style cooking equipment and associated stuff. As is often the case with good ideas, now you have suggested it, it seems irritatingly obvious. Peacock, I’m no metal expert but have already tested a small off-cut by sparks, quench and break, and tempering; it seems to have a fair carbon content and it tempers in oil to make a pretty tough edge. I think it will be fine for my relatively undemanding needs. Frosty, as always, good advice and well received… but it IS nice to have a good lump of metal that allows me to make a few ‘long-time-wants’! Nonetheless, the greater part will be saved for future needs. Charlotte, I could not find anvil devils for sale here (UK), so made my own from large old worn-down triangular files. I bought them at boot sales, annealed them and then ground the cutting ridges off. They work pretty well. Bigfootnampa, a butcher is also a good idea; I have a straight side hardy that is now coming to the end of its working life (many times refurbished) and that will soon be a butcher; I think this metal will be good for making its replacement. Thanks all. G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Ameling Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Here's a scan of that Wedge hardy tool - and some others. (My digital camera is a cheapo junker that doesn't do close-ups. So I use the scanner.) As you can see, you get two different angles on that "ramp" when it's in the hardy hole. And the "peak" is smoothed over - so no sharp edge. You get lots of ... angles ... to work with using it - instead of working with that step down to the horn from your anvil's face. If you are doing a lot of hoops, you could even curve that wedge on one side. The L shape is my Bottom Fuller. Slip it down in the hardy hole, and that other flat lays out on the anvil face. Then I fullered down into it the couple shapes I wanted. The main shape was a triangular fuller - in three stages. I used an old tapered triangular file to form it in the hot steel. I made it to help me forge tapered triangular ended Canoe Awls and Bale Needles for the early Fur Trade stuff. Many were tapered square, but a bunch were triangular in cross section. Doing that triangular taper by hand is ... rough ... to get it consistent. So I made those bottom swages to help speed that along, and save time later grinding/filing to true them up. I picked up that small bench swage block several years ago at a farm sale. Handy little block for small work. Something you could consider with some of your PTO shaft. Mikey - that grumpy ol' German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 I really like the wedge hardy tool, (wedgie?) There are two more faces that could have different angles or contours as well though that is a "maybe practical" idea. Another good one for my "Ideas from Mikey" folder. I sure wish we lived close enough to to be coffee shop buddies. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Ameling Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 I really like the wedge hardy tool, (wedgie?) There are two more faces that could have different angles or contours as well though that is a "maybe practical" idea. Another good one for my "Ideas from Mikey" folder. I sure wish we lived close enough to to be coffee shop buddies. Frosty But then we wouldn't get ANY work done - to be "productive members of society! When I saw that wedge hardy tool at the farm auction, I didn't really have too much of an idea how I was going to use it. But it just sort of ... called to me. Now I keep finding other uses for it. And I only needed a little minor grinding on the tang for it to fit the hardy hole on my 72# Haybudden. Almost like it was made for it. The hard part of that L shaped bottom swage is NOT LOSING IT - or using it for something else. I left the tang of it long so that I could double it over for a better fit in the hardy hole. But that hasn't been necessary so far. There's enough side-to-side fit so that it doesn't bounce around or shift in use. Toys ... the toys we play with. Mikey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Maybe so but it'd probably keep us out of trouble too and it wouldn't preclude us from adjourning to a shop to play test an idea or two. My LG is hours away from running, I'm waiting on the paint on last pieces to dry. Once I've gotten over beating the snot out of larger than I usually even consider forging steel, I'm going to forge up a wedgie of my own. Heck, there's a tool holder thread going that makes me thing I should make a wedgie for the LG. I'm thinking the "L" swage might be a good way to make leaf/vein/etc. swages. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Ameling Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Yes, Jay Hisel of Big River Forge had made up a bottom swage to fit his hardy hole - for making leaves. You got your basic leaf shape, then heated the end back up and hammered it down into that bottom swage. It gave you a leaf with raised veins in it. It was made from a 3/8 inch thick plate with tang welded on. The center area was dished ever so slightly. And then there were leaf veins chiseled in it - a big vein up the center, and then smaller ones radiating off on either side. Then only ... problem ... using it was holding it steady/tight to the swage for multiple hits. A small leaf you could smack into that swage with one hit. But a larger or longer leaf required several hits to get the full impression over all of it. So you REALLY needed to keep it in exactly the same spot for every hit after that first one. Or you got double veins or veins with a side-step in them. It would be better to use a flatter and a helper/striker to do that leaf impression in one good hit. It's still a good tool for quick production of leaves, and for getting them pretty consistent. And the raise veins do more closely resemble actual leaves - than those with the veins chiseled down into them. Both have their place. There are good and bad parts to having another blacksmith living near by. Yes, you do get to share ideas, and help each other out with projects. But there also is much more temptation to ... play ... instead of work. I've got friends that sometimes stop by to work on projects. When they do, I just know I will not get anything done - and I plan accordingly. For them it's "get some work/project" done. For me it's a time to ... play, and just possibly get a side project done. Mikey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 I have a couple swages I use for leaves on occasion and you're right about keeping it in place. PITA. It's probably more practical with a treadle hammer or fly press. A buddy uses leaf swages under his power hammer, the first blow sets so well it's pretty easy to keep registered. I know what you mean, any time one of us visits another the visitor get something done and the host gets a . . . visitor. Unless there's some joint project going on this seems typical no matter what the pursuit. People visiting to see our goats pretty much means nothing but playing with and talking about little goats. Oh well, everybody needs a break now and then. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divermike Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 hmmmm, which ones do I recommend??/ ALL OF THEM, get every one you can, line your walls with them, eventually you will get around to using them once, and then consider it paid for, plus they are reworkable to anything you need, hmmm I gotts go to an auction and find some more, hee hee hee, ho ho ho, ha ha ha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNJC Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 Thanks Mike, a wedge is definitely one to make; if I can find the right size of metal I'll maybe adopt Frosty's idea of a four-sided wedge. Divermike... I know what you mean, but I'll just have to make them as I need them, not enough time to do otherwise. G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Oh I don't know, you could go into business making bottom tools. I can't speak for the other guys but I'd be happy to call you the "Bottom Tool Guy." Has a nice ring doesn't it? Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt87 Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Charlotte, I could not find anvil devils for sale here (UK), so made my own from large old worn-down triangular files. I bought them at boot sales, annealed them and then ground the cutting ridges off. They work pretty well. I did similar a while ago when using a vertical piece of railway iron. I cut a piece the width of my anvil face and added a couple more inches, then isolated, drew and bent the 'spare' length so it formed two 'ears'. This stopped it jumping around as much. One supplier (I forget the name) actually admits their anvil devils are old three-square files. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Falcon 72 Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 I have a couple swages I use for leaves on occasion and you're right about keeping it in place. PITA. It's probably more practical with a treadle hammer or fly press. A buddy uses leaf swages under his power hammer, the first blow sets so well it's pretty easy to keep registered. Frosty How about in a certain guillotine I know about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Steinkirchner Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 make fullers. i use my new bottom fuller so much that i don't really take it out of the anvil. been 2 weeks since i finished it and its been in there for 8 days straight and ive used it each time the forge was lit. it is 1/2 inch radius and i find it invaluable for drawing and flaring, in fact i just finished my first ever socketed spear and it was invaluable for it. i am going to suggest you make 3 someday a 1 inch, 1/2 inch, and 3/32 inch radius. i have a hard time finding steel for tools as my anvil's hardy hole is 1 1/4 inches square. just my 2....umm...25 cents worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 How about in a certain guillotine I know about? Yeah, a guillotine is a good one for sure, like a whole tool kit in one hardy hole. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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