Begginer needs help

[Nihonius]

Hey everyone, I'm new on here so hello.
I'm wanting to get into blade smithing, but so far have no tools other that a bag of charcoal, a ball peen hammer, a book on blade smithing ("The Complete Bladesmith" by Jim Hrisoulas), and an unreliable brain. I've found lots of cheap balcksmithing tongs on Ebay, but do not know what type they are. I guess I need "single pickup" tongs, Square-lip tongs, and Round lip tongs. I have no idea what they look like though. I also need a straight peen hammer, a set hammer, and a flatter. At some point it looks like I will need some hardies and swages. I may be able to buy an anvil from one of my friends, but I'm not sure. So, does anyone know of a good site to buy tools from for a guy on a budget? Anyone selling?
Any help is appreciated, I'm really getting anxious to start making some blades!

-Nihonus

[Dodge]

This is a good starting point GS0001 Getting Started | Getting Started As well as the "Lessons in Metalworking" articles on the Home page. Long learning curve from beginning blacksmithing to making a sword. I have been smithing for about 9 years, made one real knife and I am no where near ready to make a sword. Not really interested at this point either sooo But anyway there is a lot of good people here that will be willing to steer you in the right direction, but most will suggest to start small and work up to a sword.

[ThomasPowers]

Look into the Northern Rockies Blacksmith Association NRBA - Northern Rockies Blacksmith Association
and see if you can get to some of their meetings.

I recommend The Complete Bladesmith to everyone interested in learning bladesmithing---especially swordsmithing *but* it's not the book to learn basic blacksmithing from and getting good moving metal with a hammer *first* will save you ton's of heartache doing blades.

I like Alexander Weyger's "Complete Modern Blacksmith" for his scrounge and make your own way of learning to smith. (about US$20 last time I checked)

Don't get hung up on "bought tools" none of the medieval and renaissance or japanese swords were forged on what we consider an "anvil shaped" anvil (dates to early 1800's)

Personally I find e-bay a terrible place to buy smithing tools as I can find them locally at fleamarkets, garage sales and junkstores much cheaper and No Shipping! My buy price for tongs is about US$5 a pair for decent usable tongs...might go as high as $8 if it's an especiably good pair I can use right now!

Start asking *EVERYONE* you come in contact with about smithing tools and see what you can turn up! When people have tried this some have even been *given* anvils.

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Nihonus, glad to have you.

So far all the good tips have been mentioned as far as books and how to acquire tools. So what I'll say is don't get in a hurry to jump into blades. Learning basic blacksmithing is plenty of challenge to start with and there are lots of useful things to make while learning.

All the tong types you mention and more are perfect learning exercises and once you master tong making you'll never want for one ever again. A little farther down the line hammer making is not only a really good exercise in blacksmithing it's the perfect way to get just the hammers you need. You'll need a couple hammers to start of course but a ball pein is a fine one. In fact you might just want to start hitting flea markets, second hand shops, yard sales, estate sales, auctions and the like. Pick up every ball pein hammer you can for a buck or two, one for just the head which is preferable anyway. Pick up cross peins, single jack and sledge hammer heads and one of my favorites drillering hammers.

Ball pein hammer heads can be reshaped very easily into all sorts of useful shapes. Attached are pics of the straight pein I made from a ball pein a couple months ago, as an example.

Anyway, once you get a handle and gain proficiency at blacksmithing you'll be able to make a large percentage of the tools and equipment you'll need in your shop.

Frosty

[Nihonius]

Thanks for the tips everyone, I'll be looking around for tongs and such at garage sales and auctions alot probably this summer. I may be able to get an anvil from my friend (not sure). So far, though of course I havent tried it yet, knife making seems pretty straighforward. I'm really eating up all the info I can get on it. I may be wrong, but I'll try a few simple knives out and see. Tongs are probably my biggest problem right now, since even if I saw a pair, I wouldnt know what type they are. I'll have to check out goole images and hope for a reliable picture, unless there are some on here. If I cant find a straight peen hammer I may have to grind a ball peen into one like Frosty said, and hope I do it right. Its strange that I can find alot of cross peen hammers, but barely any straight peens, and none of them good. Thanks for the tips though, and I'll look into that book Thomas. I did have Alex Bealer's book "The Art of Blacksmithing", sadly I cant find anything more than the book jacket, and never got more than 1/4-1/2 of the book done with.
I cant wait to get started on this!
-Nihonius

[unkle spike]

Tongs are one of the first projects I made, the first set we don't usually post pictures of they tend to be a little "rough". That is where a good blacksmiths group comes in. You will find someone there who makes tongs, or better yet can show you how to make your own. I bought 3 sets, but the rest of the 15 sets I have so far I have made. My first set took me the better part of an afternoon, now I can make a set in about an hour. If you search "tongs" on here you should be able to find a pattern. Most people wonder how can you make tongs, if you don't have tongs to hold the stock, just start with a long chunk of metal, and form the jaws on each end, then cut in the middle.

As far as swords, I agree, start with some smaller knives and work your way up. Knives are very time consuming, and in order to be done right, take patience and a pretty good amount of skills.

Welcome to the site, glad to have you.

[Drewed]

I started with a large pair of channel lock pliers that I had already. After nocking out a few dozen "S" and "J" hooks with them, I used them to make my own tongs. After that first set of tongs, I make all my own tongs, and the channel locks are back in the tool box where they belong.

Rule 1 of black smithing "Don't buy what you can make."

[Frosty]

I didn't grind the ball pein into a straight pein, I forged it and only used the belt grinder to clean and polish the face and pein.

You're right, straight peins are hard to find, much harder than cross peins but there are hammers that are adaptable. If you check out mason's rock hammers there is a type that is almost a perfect straight pein as is. I have one and find it too heavy for comfortable forging but it wouldn't take much to remove some of the weight.

While I really like my straight peins, angle peins are probably even better especially when you make your own. The angle of the pein makes it strike perpendicular to the stock without having to hold either arm out of position. I'd intended to make that ball pein into an angle pein but as I often do I forged the pein backwards of the angle I wanted and I twisted it to straight as I didn't want to twist it all the way the other way.

Getting things turned the opposite direction is just one of the regular pitfalls of the craft. For some of us anyway.

There should be good pictures and descriptions of the tongs you'll need in bladesmithing books I know every "how to" type blacksmithing book I have shows the basic types. Also, once you understand the hows and whys of tongs you'll be making and adapting them to exactly what YOU want, like and need.

That's the beauty of smithing, hot iron and steel are plastic, the finished shape and character are limited only by the smith's knowledge, imagination and skill.

Vise grips were invented by a blacksmith who was tired of dropping his work from regular smithing tongs. Mr. Miller invented the arc welder because he was tired of losing money on failed forge welds in his shop. One of the Hobart brothers invented the oxy acet torch as a truly portable forge to save time doing field repairs. He could repair a broken part on a gate without having to dismount the gate and wrestle it into a coal forge and do it solo. For instance.

Anyway, my point is use what you have, improvise and get to hammering soonest. Reading and talking to blacksmiths is a wonderful learning tool but without actually taking a hammer to hot steel you won't be able to DO it.

Frosty

[Nihonius]

Ya I'm trying to get going on starting this, but am still collecting parts for a forge and need an avil of some kind still. I'm planning on putting an ad in the paper to see if someone will sell me an anvil. I thought I might get one from my friend, but I guess its a really old family heirloom. For tongs all I have is a cheap pair of barbecue tongs, which are not safe I'm sure for holding hot metal. I'm going to make my first forge with the method of putting a pipe across a metal tank and filing the tank with clay/adobe. I'm either going to use a big long steel feed bucket (i have no idea what its called, used to winter fish in it) or find an old steel garbage can at the dump and cut it in half length wise. I'll probably also make a smaller forge to work easier with knives and things smaller than a sword.

If I had a long forge, but only wanted to do a small object in it, could I just make a pile of charcoal on one end of the forge to save fuel? Do I need to plug the holes in the pipe (tuyere?) that are exposed to the air?

If you are working on a project but need to stop mid way through, do you just slow cool the metal in a pile of sand? (anneal?)

One last thing for now, does anyone know what type of steel railroad spikes tend to be made of? I have access to a near infinite supply. Do you need to clean off the rust and grime before using it, or does that just burn off?

Thanks all,
-Nihonius

[luke peter]

Hi Nihonius.

You are spot on with the large to small forge conversion, especially if you plan to build a lively style solid fuel (which is what you have described). Yes, the holes over which no fuel will be placed should be blocked with some extra clay, dont worry, this will be easy to remove after you are finished.

If you wish to properly anneal your piece, it will need to be slow cooled, though conventional sand at room temperature will be a tad too fast, bury the piece in the warm ashes of the forge and let it cool from there. This having been said, you need not anneal your workpiece every time you stop forging, letting it slowly air cool(normalizing) is enough to ease the stress that you have put in the steel during the forging process. A full anneal is what you want before you start machining the item in question, since it results in a coarse pearlitic structure, which is soft.

RR spike steels vary according to their manufacturers, Usually, the ones with heads stamped HC are in the region of 0.3 to 0.5 percent carbon, a rough equivalent to 1030 to 1050, the ones without the HC are around 0.1 percent, and thus useless for blades. Truth be told, these make average to poor knife steels, but excellent letter openers:) Brush the loose stuff off before forging since any impurities from outside are less than desirable, and large chunks of oxide can cause pitting in the material during forging.

Hope i have been of some assistance:)

Keep the fires burning.

Luke


Staff addition: In the USA HC rr-spikes are not going to be more than .3% carbon, equivalent of 1030 at best. here we have nothing close to 1050 in Spikes.

Edited May 15, 2009 by steve sells
staff addition

[Nihonius]

Ya that's very helpful, thank you! I dont think the spikes I have found have any stamp at all on them. So are they like mild steel I suppose? I guess the steel Roman used for their gladii swords was roughly equivalent to modern mild steel. So if it worked for them, I'm sure it would be at least a good cheap practice steel. I need to study steel types more though, but I think mild steel must be pretty low carbon.
I was lucky enough to get a piece of railroad track yesterday from a steel recycling center, and they offered to cut it to anvil shape for free since I dont have a torch of my own. I just hope it wont be too much of a problem for the horn to not be totally rounded. I'll still have to try figuring out how to heat treat it.
Heck, i need to find some good step by step instructions for a blower or bellows soon. I've found some stuff on here, but they werent very detailed. I'll have to keep looking.

Thanks for the help,
-Nihonius

[Frosty]

In the USA HC spikes are MAX 30 pts of carbon mild steel. Tough not hard and no good for blades that need to hold an edge.

Frosty

[Nihonius]

Cant carbon be added to the steel by working with it in the top layer of coals somehow? (my book hasnt gone into detail on this, at least not yet).
One other thing my book hasnt gone into is what kind of oil the blade must be quenched in, all it's ever said is "oil". Canola oil, olive oil, mineral oil, whale oil, motor oil, sesame oil, peanut oil, there are so many kinds lol :)

[Old South Creations]

I like you enthusiasm but I want to a repeat what's already been said...you'll be better off to learn some basic forging before you jump into making a swords. If you can find someone offering classes in your area that's probably the best way to get started (in my opinion). I was lucky enough to take couple of classes to get me going and I don't know what I would have done otherwise...probably just gotten frustrated and given up. Just like everything else worth doing, it takes time and it takes practice to be good. Reading is great and I think important but there's nothing like getting your hands dirty!

By the way, that RR anvil will serve you well until you can get something different. A lot of smiths have started off that way.

[ThomasPowers]

Ahh the Romans used real wrought iron or wrought iron derrived steels; mild steel as we know it dates till after around 1856 when the Bessemer/Kelly process came into being. They were also forging with real charcoal, coal not coming into use till the high middle ages and even then was not used everywhere.

Carburizing steel: generally you will scale off steel fater than you can soak carbon into it.

There are ways but expect to need a bit more experience before going into them. (I recently let a carburizing process go too long and ended up too close to cast iron dang nabbit!)

For more roman era info may I commend to your attention "The Celtic Sword", Radomir Pleiner, goes into much detail of the metallurgy of the blades.

Edited May 15, 2009 by ThomasPowers

[Nihonius]

If it only carburizes the outer layer, couldnt you fold the steel a bunch of times to work it in (thats just a theory, I really have no idea lol).

[Steve Sells]

If it was that simple, our pattern welded billets would be higher, not lower than the mean average carbon levels of the steels used.

One problem with forge work is that carbon has a stronger affinity for air than for steel, so we normally lose carbon while forging. This effect is so common we plan ahead in our blades for the de-carb zones removal after final heat treat.

[Nihonius]

Isnt the top layer of coals supposed to add carbon instead of taking it away though? Bottom layer oxidizes, mid layer is just right/neutral, and top is full of carbon because the oxygen from the bottom has been used by the fire.
Oh ya, are you supposed to hold onto your metal work with your hands in the area not being worked? I've seen pictures of people doing it, but I would think the immense heat would travel up the metal and be hot enough to burn. I always thought your tongs just had to be good enough to grip the piece well. If this is so, I guess you can just stick the tip of your work only slightly into the coals?
I'm just trying to eat up as much info as I can before I accidentaly kill myself out of stupidity :)

[Cindy]

I'm pretty new at this smithing thing. Two things that I've found helpful is a video I got on ebay. It's called "Knifemaking Unplugged" It showed me you can do a lot with very simple things that are not "traditional" blacksmithing tools. I think you can get it from Tim Lively -- Handmade knives since 1974 as well as ebay. Another helpful thing to me has been on ebay. A store called Poor Boy Blacksmithing Tools. This guy makes tongs, hardies etc at reasonable prices until you learn to do those things for yourself or if you just don't want to. He has good info on anvils and shipping costs too. Mostly I'd say it's important to just do it. Everything I've made, done, tried and failed etc has taught me a lot. One thing's for sure, once that blacksmith bug bites you, it ain't EVER letting go!

[Charlotte]

Isnt the top layer of coals supposed to add carbon instead of taking it away though? Bottom layer oxidizes, mid layer is just right/neutral, and top is full of carbon because the oxygen from the bottom has been used by the fire.
Oh ya, are you supposed to hold onto your metal work with your hands in the area not being worked? I've seen pictures of people doing it, but I would think the immense heat would travel up the metal and be hot enough to burn. I always thought your tongs just had to be good enough to grip the piece well. If this is so, I guess you can just stick the tip of your work only slightly into the coals?
I'm just trying to eat up as much info as I can before I accidentaly kill myself out of stupidity

Ok item one: Carbon will migrate into steel under certain conditions. Normally an item being forged is not in the fire long enough to absorb much carbon and most of that is lost when the hot iron is removed from the fire by the formation of scale.
Item 2 You are suppose to hold iron by what ever means works for you.
Fortunately Iron does not conduct heat as quickly as Aluminium or Copper.
You can often hold a piece in your had and do what is necessary before it becomes too hot to hold. Many smiths, my self included buy gloves and use up the left hand when the right hand is still clean.

Learning to manage the heat in your work is one of the skills you develop with experience.

Most smiths keep some kind of sprinker or squirter to cool sections of their work to isolate the heat to only the area they want to work with.

Tongs are normaly adjusted to fit the work, but long pieces of iron are difficult to manage with tongs. One of the skills repuired of swordsmith is learning to handle longer pieces hot steel than many other smiths normaly want to mess with.

[Nihonius]

I'm pretty new at this smithing thing. Two things that I've found helpful is a video I got on ebay. It's called "Knifemaking Unplugged" It showed me you can do a lot with very simple things that are not "traditional" blacksmithing tools. I think you can get it from Tim Lively -- Handmade knives since 1974 as well as ebay. Another helpful thing to me has been on ebay. A store called Poor Boy Blacksmithing Tools. This guy makes tongs, hardies etc at reasonable prices until you learn to do those things for yourself or if you just don't want to. He has good info on anvils and shipping costs too. Mostly I'd say it's important to just do it. Everything I've made, done, tried and failed etc has taught me a lot. One thing's for sure, once that blacksmith bug bites you, it ain't EVER letting go!

I think a video would work great at showing how do things before I ever even fire up a forge, so I'll have to check that out. I've also seen stuff from the Poor Boy blacksmith, sadly i'm the "dirt poor in an alley" boy. Lol. I'll take a look on there again, but I still thought it was pricey.

@Charlotte, thank for clearing that up with me. If I'm working a long piece, I can wear gloves and hold it by hand.

[Glenn]

The general advice is not to wear gloves while blacksmithing. Bare handed you can feel the heat as warm, then build up and at some point, turn it loose and let the metal (and heat) go. All this is before the meat of the hand reaches cooking temperature. (grin). Even though you turn loose of the metal, the heat is still coming through the glove and into the hand. Steam travels to the hand even faster. The only relief is to remove the glove and with some glove designs, this is not easy or fast.

For long or large pieces of hot metal, I would suggest reflective gloves, or the special heat insulated gloves, to shield the hands from the radiant heat reaching the back of the hands and arms. But this is different from wanting the gloves to protect the palm from heat.

As Charlotte mentioned, a small stream of water or squirt bottle will keep the heat from traveling up the stock. You can even dip the non-working (cold) end of the stock into the slack tub to cool it down.

[Nihonius]

So dont wear gloves at all? It's really that cool to touch? Wow. Shouldnt someting like a sword be heated evenly down the entire length when working it? If you only heated the tip for instance, isnt the metal in that spot now going to have properties different than the rest? Then if you cool the piece and reheat it later, everything is way different. I would think for a piece so dependant on the state of it's entirety, you would have to heat the entire piece evenly. Thats just a theory, I have no idea really. I cant just go find out on my own yet because I dont have an anvil or forge yet. I may get the anvil on monday, but still need to temper it and maybe drill hardy holes and such in it.

[Frosty]

In a word, No, that isn't how it works. The longer you keep a piece of steel at working heat without working it the more damage you do to it. You can only work a few inches at a time so heating more than that is wasteful of fuel, time and damages the steel.

Not to belabor a point but this is VERY basic stuff. Stuff any competent blacksmith needs to know, stuff you learn if you start at the beginning. There's more too, so many things a lot of us couldn't list them if we tried.

Why not? Not because we wouldn't like to but because as we learned the craft we learned a Thing, absorbed it, used it till it became second nature and moved on to learning the next. Typically though you're learning half a dozen things at a time, they're all so interrelated you can't learn just one at a time.

Anyway, wanting to make a sword without learning the basics, then the intermediate and THEN the advanced is like wanting to enter the Olympics to learn to swim.

However I'm not going to say you CAN'T do a thing, recommend against it sure but you're going to do what you want. Good luck, be careful, be safe.

Frosty

[Steve Sells]

I may get the anvil on monday, but still need to temper it and maybe drill hardy holes and such in it.

Slow down and read a bit more before you do anything.. whats this about temper your anvil and drill it ? Back up, learn basics then ask about swords and other advanced topics.