Frank Turley

I don't think the wheat/salt method is going to impart carbon. H. Holford in his book* says that it will protect thin edges on a tool such as a knife steel or on rasp teeth, so that they don't get scaled and dulled at hardening heat on high carbon steel. * "The 20th Century Toolsmith and Steelworker" http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

Hey Bud, You got a Hay-Bud. Yes a lot of dirt pick points were "tested" after tempering on the side of the anvil. Grant Sarver said one time on another forum that he was REQUIRED by his boss, as a young smith, to test tools thusly.

An old book has been invaluable to me, "The 20th Century Toolsmith and Steelworker" by H. Holford. It tells how to forge tools of high carbon steel for the various trades. Just now, I found 8 copies for sale at dealoz.com, the most reasonable being $35 plus shipping. If I were starting out, that would be cheap at twice the price. Buying a good book is like buying a good tool. http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

Bruce, ¡You're the Man! Thank you. Now I can rework my tongs when I begin work on those types of tools.

It looks British and it looks old. I agree that the table hole came later, but for what reason? http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

In the video, "The Gunsmith of Williamsburg", Wallace Gusler is using a screw plate. It has a few dies lined up on a single plate so in use, the handles would sometimes be eccentric of the part that's being threaded. The overvoice says that Gusler and his helpers made all of their hand tools "except files and hacksaw blades." I have taken apart a number of old flintlocks, and each tapered wood screw had to be labeled and put in its own envelope. The screws were not interchangeable; they were individually filed to shape. http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

At the local flea, I bought an old tool for punching square and round holes. It has the bottom square with the central hole, and is fixed into a holder. The 1/2" square hole receives a square punch, the punch necked down from 1" square tool steel. The square runs vertically through a 1" hole, a connected sleeve-like keeper. The whole thing fits on the anvilface...has a hardie shank. I've never used it, but it is a wonderful, careful forging that has match marks to align everything. It came out of Texas and I suspect was used on plow shares. http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

Nice looking hammer. I'm curious as to its use, as I have a manufactured one that I have never used. I take my cold riveting clue from an old English book* which suggests for a domed head to hit with the face of the hammer followed by rounding up the head with the ball of a ball peen, and the final shaping done with the rivet snap (set, domer or dolly). Perhaps the so called riveting hammer is used similarly by first hitting with the face and then rounding the head with the peen? Thanks for any help; I pass along to my students anything newly learned. * "Handcraft in Metal" by Shirley & Shirley, Lippincott, 6th ed., 1953. http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

Yes, Yataiki was at the Wisconsin conference, but I wasn't. He was the oldest of the Japanese smiths. He has also demonstrated at The Crucible in Berkeley, CA. He is truly a sensei. http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

We made a 12" one time and wondered about the approach, because all I had seen, save one, were manufactured. Edgewise,the eye stands proud of the blade. We worked with an old ½" X 4" wrought iron wagon tire. We roughed out the blade shape and thinned a length for the eye. We forged a loop for the eye, and drifted it with a forged and sanded, shop-made drift. The eye was cropped, scarfed and Tee-welded to the back of the blade. The high carbon strip for the cutting edge is fagot welded on one side only, because the axe is sharpend with a single bevel, the bevel always angling toward the high carbon steel. We put a simple scarf, a bevel, along the high carbon length, to be facing the blade back when welding. This allows the metal to "flow" together better, than if the edge was a right angle. Without the simple scarf, The metel "bites into" it's neighbor, even at a welding heat, and may create a shut. We used two coal forges that were fairly near each other for the weld. We were hollering at each other as to what the temperature might be. At a sweating welding heat, We ran to a common anvil and got the central one third of the length welded. With two more welding heats, we got the fagot completed, but it was rough and had shuts. It took probably a half dozen or more heats to smooth the weld. By hammering and disc sanding, I got a fairly good blade shape. Prior to hardening, I beveled the cutting edge but left blunt about a 1/8" thickness. We used quenching oil in a sheet metal trough for hardening, and we tempered to a purple [527ºF] with an oxy torch. Thence, a final cleanup and sharpening. It was not easy. http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

Wow! There is lots to know. I'm not hip with sending pictures. I can send you info the old fashioned way by post, if you wish to privately send me your address. The sen is made by fagot welding a slab of high carbon steel to a like slab of low carbon steel. The high carbon is hit when welding; otherwise the mild steel may draw too much and spill over the cutting edge. They come in various widths from maybe 1/4" to 10". The sen is a push shave more than a draw shave. Once the weld is completed, two flat stock shanks with tangs are T-welded either side to receive wooden handles. The shanks are mild steel and are at right angles to the axis of the two sharpened edges. There is a slight convexity in width to both cutting edges. The side of the blade facing the steel is "hollowed", bent, concaved a little, and this can be done cold over the anvil edge after normalizing. The cutting edges are about 50º to 60º with a slight belly in cross-section on the outside. The sen is hardened in luke warm water, but no temper is drawn. When pushed in use, the blade is slightly skewed. Because of the little flat bend in the blade, The central portion does not make contact with the steel being cut. It is going to be 1/32" to 1/16" above the workpiece. Just the fore and aft cutting edges do the shaving. A photo of a large sen is shown in the book, "The Craft of the Japanese Sword." Those of you familiar with Japanese woodworking will know the the non beveled side of a wood chisel is relieved; it has a slight depression in it almost the width of the blade. This makes less work when flattening the back before finishing the bevel on the opposite side. On fine hand made chisels, the depression is done with a sen. That is why some sen are so narrow at the cutting edges. I claim no expertise on this subject. I spent 6 days with the premier saw maker of Japan when he visited the States in the 90's. He made tools other than saws, including a few sen that he had for us to look at. His name is Yataiki. http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

Alfred Habermann showed the leaf form when he came to the States from Czechoslovakia in the early 1980"s. I assume you're doing his style, pointing and necking over the far radius of the anvil. To get proper leaf width, the pointed taper should be the same angle as a sharpened pencil. The two 90º shoulders should begin immediately behind your taper, into native material. If you're not too shy with the hammer blows, you wil get a lump forming below the anvil edge in one or two heats depending on stock size. The stem on the anvil face will be square in cross section and thin. When you turn it part way over, the stem will be on the diamond (corner up) and the lump facing upwards. Take a heat taking care not to burn the stem and flatten the leaf at the anvil face middle. I will often leave the stem square on the finished piece; it has a nice look. The leaf may be slightly thicker at its point than on its lobes, but that is OK. Then you give your work an attitude by curving the lobes, the tip, and the stem. Don't let the lump flop back and forth at a black heat. Don't straighten any bending at a black heat. http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

Is this going to be a thread about windfalls? What the hey? I went to shoe a horse for a new customer in the 1960's, and I was transitioning little by little to blacksmithing. While I was bending over and nailing on, he asked me whether I did blacksmith work besides horseshoeing. I said that I did and that I wanted to do more of it. He said, "Well, I thought I was gonna' blacksmith at one time, so I bought this set of tongs in the 1940's...never used them." He proceeded to give me seven pair of Atha flat tongs, all graded in size from "16" [gage sheet metal] to 1", and three Atha bolt tongs, graded in size from 1/4" to 1/2". Original black paint, and I still got 'em, and I still use 'em. http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

We tease each other in the shop about hand hammering a triangular cross-section. Can anybody do that? I have a "cartoon" bird's head forged of 1" square by Tom Joyce where the large bill is a tapered triangular section with a slight downward curve. In studying the shape, it appears that Tom may have forged it to a round taper and then run it upside-down through a specifically made vee-swage. When turned over, the central ridge is upward. It is not equilateral; the hammered side is a little wider than either of the swaged flats. As you might imagine, it is a fine forged piece, and I had Tom put his initials on it. http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

A few short years ago, I wrote into anvilfire about this 'post vise' business, because to me, 'post vise' was erroneous. I got poo pooed. I can only say that I began in 1963 as a horseshoer and transitioned to blacksmithing in the late 60's and early 70's. All of the fossilized farriers and smiths that I talked to called it a leg vise. A couple of books called it a solid box vise, the latter term having been coined by the Peter Wright firm. I will continue to call the vise a 'leg vise' even though I'm outnumbered on the Net by the "post vise posters". Pun intended. The hand cranked drill presses were usually called 'post drills' because they were mounted on a thick board, and thence to a post. A central line was scribed vertically down the board flat, and the lower support/receptacle was aligned with the drill proper. This board was often attached to a upright post in the shop. I checked out what the leg vise is termed in Spanish: 'el tornillo de pie,' literally vise of foot. In French, it is "étau sur pied," which literally is 'vise above leg.' "Pied" in French can mean foot, but it refers to a leg on furniture and tools. http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

Those are nice. Years ago, my first pair were of mild steel, like 1020, not A36, and the first time I used them, the jaws sprung open. Subsequently, I've made three pair of 5/8" round auto coil spring, the only heat treat being air cooling. http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

Thank you guys, but keep those cards and letters comin'. The recognition thing sounds plausible, but so does the affectation idea. I mentioned the fuller marks to my journeyman helper/striker who spent five years forging in Germany, and he said, "Eye candy!" In terms of eye candy (my farrier mentor called it eye wash), that projecting lug-like 'ear' on an old well made leg vise was probably to keep filings out of the works. However, there is one on the fixed leg jaw as well as the movable leg jaw. The fixed one serves not any function that I see, except to balance the design. http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

I just wondered if y'all wondered why the little semi-circular indentations were placed on the four corners of some smithing top tools, business end side, and sledge hammers, peen side. I even have a European splitting maul with the marks near the poll. They were put on both manufactured and hand forged tools. In a painting from 1826, "Pat Lyon at the Forge," there is a sledge hammer shown with the fuller marks, so it dates way back. http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Tools

There is nothing wrong with forging a "soft cornered" square cross-section. It's more like an octagon with chamfers, but the chamfers remain from the native material; they are not directly forged. That way, you've saved the reduction needed for a sharp cornered square.

I think I read somewhere, that some such balls are made of white cast iron (no graphite) or chilled cast iron where you get a hard white case surrounding a gray cast iron center. The white iron is sometimes alloyed. http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

I started heating and beating in the early 1960's. This was before Internet; before ABANA; and before Blacksmith Resuscitation. Around 1970, I met Tom Bredlow, a good man at the anvil. Tom had a way with words and a way of looking at things, so I thought I'd relate three Bredlow stories. In the 1970's, ABANA was getting started and they had the 'Anvils Ring' newsletter, which at that time was dinky and possibly mimeographed(?). Tom wrote an article titled, "On the Anxieties of using the Arc Welder." I think he summarized by saying that it could be used by a smith in a judicious manner, let's say, that one plug-welds a handle to an escutcheon from the back side, etc. Another time, Tom was in his smithy forging away, and a visitor walked in off the street. The visitor spied an arc welder at one side of the shop and spouted, "Hah, I thought you were a blacksmith. What's that welder doing over there?" Tom replied, "I am a blacksmith; I'm just not a stupid blacksmith." I was interviewed by editor, Rob Edwards, for his 'Anvil" magazine a number of years ago, and Rob kept prodding me with hypothetical questions about, "What if an 1800 blacksmith could have had an arc welder, would he have used it? What if he had a water jet setup, etc., etc." I kept evading the questions as best I could, and I finally told him a Bredlow story. Tom had made a National Cathedral gate commemorating the Packard Auto family, and he was hauling it to D.C. for installation. It was crated with 1/4" plywood and it just fit the bed of his old pickup truck. On the way, he pulled up in front of my shop to show it off. I had a class in their 2nd day of instruction. Tom peeled back the top board, and there was revealed a quality piece worthy of the cathedral. I looked at it carefully, and finally blurted, "Tom, is there any modern day welding or machining done on this gate?" His good answer, "NO, BECAUSE THAT WASN'T WHAT IT WAS!" This means that he set out to do it entirely in the forge, and he did so. I studied anthropology in school, and we learned that there are some societies that do not use hypothetical situations, because it isn't in their language or mindset to even pose such things; interesting. One snippy response in English: "If my grandmother had wheels, she'd have been a truck." I am presently helping on a gate with its two side-throws, designed by a journeyman smith who had worked in Germany for five years. It is composed of channel iron, angle iron, and solid round and flat stock. It is arc welded, riveted, and tenoned. It is fabbed and forged, because "THAT'S WHAT IT IS!" I think I have not given a direct answer to this initial thread question, but I enjoyed sharing these stories. http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

I'm a hand hammer and LG smith. Clifton Ralph notwithstanding, I can't fathom the methodology of forging a hex section with flat dies. If you flatten round stock somewhat, you obtain a capsule section (like an RX pill). If you turn it 60º, there is no solid anvil support under the tup blow. Earlier responses have already talked about symmetry and vertical point to point contact. That is lost with the 60º turn. You may not only get a twist, but an internal rupture called "pipe" which can't be seen from the outside. One of my books talks about this briefly, Schwarzkopf I believe. My old swage block has large hex swages on one side. Nobody know 10% of anything. If someone has an answer, I'm open to hearing it. http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

Good show, Rusty. I might add that one should not press hard on the wheel. A light touch will be easier to read. http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

Peter Ross gave the keynote address at the Asheville, NC, ABANA conference a few years ago. He talked about our society's "machine mentality." We are inured to buying things off the shelf that are perhaps shiny and everything is exactly at right angles or has exactly the right curves. For instance, a bread toaster or a pair of pliers. He talked of a smith he knew who could not help but have the same mentality. This acquaintance was forging something that he needed to cut in half. He quenched the piece and walked 60 feet to the far end of his shop where he chop-sawed it. Then he returned to the forge to reheat and continue. Of course, the machine cut was neat and shiny (a machine mentality cut), but Ross wondered why in the world he did not use the hardie. We know that the hardie cut distorts and draws the stock minimally, but who cares? It's going to be forged anyway, and it's still hot! No reheating. I think that Ross was warning us to be aware of this sort of mentality and to use the forge where easily applicable. http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

The few old ones I've seen have no included angle nor bevel. The cross section was totally wedge shaped, a triangular section. This requires lots of forging and perhaps sanding for a finish. This shape apparently allowed for easier riving. Ideally, the eye is shouldered a little ways above the blade edge to keep the haft from interfering with the action of the froe. The eye is a loop weld and when finished, should be tapered, the larger end on the blade edge side. The tapered haft is inserted, therefore, "from the bottom upwards." This is supposed to keep the haft from being knocked off through repeated use with the froe club. I have made a couple of them out of mild steel. I welded the eye straight and then tapered it over the floor mandrel. In the Foxfire books, there was an expression, "This knife is dull as a froe." This referred to the fact that most old froes were made of wrought iron or mild steel. They didn't need to be "keen." They were used for riving on the end grain, not for for cutting. http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools