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Yeah, that's really sad Thomas. I can bet it was hard to walk thru there, just knowing that pure neglect did all that stuff in. The place I was referring to was pretty solid. They had been UAW for many years and suffered a massive strike in the mid 90s. Melling Forge made tie rod ends and other parts for the automotive industry in their heyday. They reopened for awhile but it was never the same as far as work output went. They finally shut their doors and the place sat literally untouched for a good few years. They were basically running a skeleton crew when they ran non Union so a lot of the former production stuff was left in as in condition from the original strike. A buddy I worked with at Dart ended up working there for a few months, said it was a hole for sure. Unfortunately the hammer shop was in an annexed part of the plant by the time I got in there to see it, and they had it all locked up. They had some pretty good stuff back there I would have loved to just see. I had an arrangement to buy a very nice Pratt and Whitney lathe for $700 and some other stuff from their guy but after the dude took my money he got all sketchy and didn't want to give me a receipt for any of it. He told me I could broker some stuff out of there, then when I brought a guy in to look at a welder they had, he said now everything had to go thru higher up and no deal. It was embarrassing and pretty bogus to pull that kind of bait and switch thing after being so receptive and even asking me to help him coordinate and sell some of the smaller stuff for him. The killing blow came right after he took my money tho, he now stated that there would be an additional charge for "rigging" and that I couldn't move the machine myself. This was after he emphatically assured me it wouldn't be a problem. The guy was a two faced lying hypocrite. It was a real bummer because I had a few ppl lined up to buy some bigger ticket items. I guess a machinery dealer came in and bought most of it. They scrapped the rest best of my knowledge. I basically told the guy to refund my money and go pound sand after he introduced the "rigging" charges. It was still a great price, but after he screwed me around the way he did I was fit to be tied (and a lot of other things I cannot say on this board). I told him to keep his stuff and you probably know the rest... I did keep the Coloumbian vise tho. It was just too nice to let go. I think I paid $175 for it, but it's a pretty big one and in nice shape. You can sorta see it in the background of the pic below. They sold the property to a developer who ended up making an industrial park out of the buildings. He put a lot of dough in it and it's a pretty nice place today. I almost rented from him when I was looking for a shop back in 2006, but they wanted a little more than I wanted to pay for four walls and a roof. No power or heat(he wasn't entirely finished with the remodel when I went in to inquire about renting space) He was a real nice guy tho and in my estimation did the local neighborhood a huge favor cleaning the place up and making usable spaces out of it. I live probably a mile from it at the very most. I'm sorry for being long winded. I love old factories and shops. Don't ever get me talking about the old GM plants. I'll be here all night!

You can do it with a grinder and cutoff wheel, but it'll take awhile. I've cut some big stuff with my Metabo 6" grinder and a cutoff wheel. Maybe try taking it to the rental place and see if you flipped the guy in the yard $20-40 bux if he might just do it for you. Theres always torches too. Grind it flat afterward.

HGR is having a big sale Thursday. It's on their website. Up to 50% off. It's a good thing I'm about broke. That's the LAST thing I need to do right now is go to an equipment sale..... The surplus place looks like a good hit if you can get in and check it out. We had a drop forge close here and after sitting derelict for several years they opened the doors and sold everything inside. It was like the workers just dropped their tools and walked away. There was some good stuff there. The guy running the sale was a dirtbag tho so I didn't end up buying much. I did get my 6" Coloumbian vise out of there tho.

Oh, that sounds like my kinda place! We have a pretty good yard here. Not quite as much heavy stuff since they tore the old GM plants down, but they still get a nice assortment of materials and every once in awhile some machinery JHCC, there's only one yard here that officially sells useable scrap. The other one does, but it's not really set up for that and you can only get what's on the ground, you can't climb on the big piles

I've never run any real big motors off mine. I honestly didn't think it would have to be that much bigger, but it stands to reason it would for the startup at minimum. Those VFDs kinda freak me out . I just see one blowing up on me right after the warranty runs out lol. The guy I worked for swore by ABBs offerings. They're not cheap by any stretch of the imagination tho, but I suppose a used one in good working order wouldn't be too awful bad price wise. I am going to put one on a belt grinder I just picked up tho. It will be my first direct experience with one. We dealt with them on the farm, but that's about the extent of my experience with them. I definitely want something quality and I'll pay for it rather than end up with something junk. I like my rotary, but I don't have much in it and it fits my needs ok. I have to have it for running welding machines after a repair to test them. Before, I was hauling them to a buddy's shop and that was a royal pain. What are you using for VFDs brand Wise?

Oh I certainly will. I hadn't been down there in quite awhile, but I found that welder then I happened across the belt grinder later on. I keep an eye on their site somewhat regularly. Are there any good scrap yards down there?

Hehehe.. Now, I have three belt grinders. I really like this one tho.. The small one I have is in need of an overhaul, and I think I'm going to rework it for a smaller contact wheel. It's somewhat of a cobble job but it's served me faithfully for the last 12+ years since I put it together. I think thats one of the tough parts about living in AK, machine tools aren't as common to come by as inexpensively as they are down here in the rust belt. HGR often has stuff like this for cheap too. Cleveland is only four hours away, so a day trip there and back is very feasible They're hit and miss, but a lot of the stuff they sell eventually ends up in their "markdown" section and is even dirt cheap in some cases. They give you a thirty day return policy, so besides the trip back, you won't get stuck with it if it's junk. I bought an old Lincoln Idealarc TIG 300/300 down there for $600 pretty much plug and play. I had a Miller Dynasty 350 but decided to sell it so I could make some room this summer to do some forge work and not have to sweat the big bills. The Linc replaced it. Not a bad machine for the money. I've sold quite a few of them. Ive talked to some ppl who live up in AK and it seems that used equipment commands a much higher price than it does in the cont 48.. At least in my experience it seems to. What happened to your grinder? Any chance at all it could be saved? If getting something up there wasn't so darned expensive, I would be happy to help facilitating getting something to you. I sent some stuff to a fella up there from another website, but he had a deal worked out with his former employer where all he had to do was get it to their shipping depot in Washington State, and they would ship it up to AK with the rest of their gear going on the next barge. For like $20 or something ridiculously cheap.

That's got a real unique look to it. The round stock really sets it off. I've built a few gates but it's not my bag. Betting yours will turn out nice!

May not float your boat, but I use clear lacquer on anything I want to protect from rust that's bare metal. Sure, it's not going to look pretty, but it's practical and easy to reapply when necessary. I keep the faces of my hammers well dressed, but the rest of it doesn't matter to me as long as it isn't rusting to the point of coming off on my hands. Just a thought.

Mr Sells isnt kidding either. It gets expensive REAL fast. Then, when you get the first bill, you're likely to fall out of your shoes. Three phase power is billed very differently from residential power. You are charged by a peak demand rate, and that can fluctuate by how much you use, and at what time of the day. I'm not super well versed in the billing formula, but the bottom line is they really stick it to you, and unless you use a LOT of power (and have income coming in to justify it) it's not a real practical way to go for the occasional user. Large industrial users often have arrangements with the power supplier and pay a much lower price per KWH than a small user will. But again, they're buying a LOT of it at once. I know a couple guys who run large phase converters to power their shops, which aren't huge but are running several mills, lathes and welders at once with maybe under 8 employees. It is cheaper for them to run the large rotary than to pony up the money to run a three phase service in, then pay the monthly bill. Again, for BIG operations using lots of power, it has clear advantages but for something like this, or even a larger small business it's going to be an added expense for sure. As far as the VFD, they do have advantages, mainly that they can do more than a static converter, and as mentioned the speed can be varied by changing the frequency of power fed to the motor. They do however have their foibles and if you have a problem with one, opening your wallet really wide is the best way to fix them. They can also be very hard on motors and in some cases, wear them out faster than running at one frequency all the time. Rotary converters run quite efficiently, and if one were to buy a pre made control and install it to a properly rated motor, they really can be a cost effective way to operate big machinery on a small level operation. The other good thing about them is that rotary converters can power resistive loads such as welders with a high degree of success. I've powered several 400 amp machines off mine, and although not a full output, they operate at very acceptable levels. The only thing limiting me in my case is the size breaker I have it on. 50 amps is all I have to work with. Of course, in my situation I'm not running several pieces of equipment at once and I'm the only one running it. Hopefully we will hear more about the hammer and how the OP sets it up. It looks like a pretty sweet machine from where I'm sitting IMHO of course

This guy told me that a three phase VFD can be used on a single phase motor, supplied with single phase power but you have to double the size of it in order to do so. He was quite knowledgable about them and had installed a number of them on pumping and vacuum equipment used in the dairy business. I worked for him for awhile, he had a lot of experience with setting them up and troubleshooting them. He had also set them up on several farms where only single phase power was available. I took him at his word, but again I would get some more info before I bought one to try it out. If the OP has 3 ph supply to his shop, he wouldn't need anything providing his service and motor voltage are compatible. I imagine if he has a 10-15HP motor on that hammer a 15 HP rotary will run it. Startup is going to be the only tough part, but a well designed converter system will be able to do it no sweat, providing he has the input amperage to run it. I've run static and dynamic loads off mine on a 50 amp breaker. Of course, more amps would be better, but that's all I have. It will start the 250 amp Lincoln motor generator welders with absolutely no problem. Output was a little on the low side, but with only 50 amps supplying it, that's not a surprise. It will be a chunk of change to buy a new rotary that big, that's why I suggested building one, but there will still be some expense. On the other hand, when you buy a hammer this big, you already plan on getting pretty serious anyways. IMHO of course

Cool. No haven't seen it yet. I'll look tho Yeah, we have a few TSCs around here. Never even thought they would have it. Everyone I have talked to says bituminous is a lot easier to work with than anthracite. I'll have to truck over there and see what they have. Might get lucky lol

I went to Cleveland a week ago and picked up a welder. This belt grinder happened to find its way into my trailer Had to rewire the motor for low voltage, but it runs just fine off my rotary phase converter. I think I'm going to put a speed control VFD on it once I get around to rebuilding it. It also has that unique dual spindle which a number of things could be attached to. It looks to be of well built construction, that's for sure. Came from good 'ol HGR Surplus. You do find good deals there every now and then lol. I got $180 in it. Some TLC and I think it'll be a keeper The bonus is once I build a proper stand for it, I get a free heavy duty work table, after I patch the belt hole

I was under the impression you could use a three phase one at double the rating. I was told this by a former employer who did a great deal of work on dairy farms and installed many VFDs on equipment. I have not verified this so that's about as much as I know about it. The rotary is certainly the way to go in this case, at least as far as I'm concerned if it were mine. Being I already have one tho, it's a no brainier for me lol.

Great ideas. Jim your work is exceptional. Those scrolls are very nice.

I'm going to do some looking around for some coal here. Just for kicks anyways. I did fire up the forge today tho and hammer on some stainless! Still needs more work, it's an embarrassment right now so I'll skip a thread or pix Look forward to seeing what you come up with Mike.

Well said rockstar. It's truly amazing how much the concept of "value" is lost on ppl today. So many think that a good "value" is just a cheap price, and how wrong indeed that is. To capture a piece of a wide market, such as this would be I assume, you have to be able to offer value added features to your product that allow it to stand out from the rest of the pack. In the business I'm in, I shoot for a comprehensive value package that gives the customer not only a reasonable price, but service and peace of mind post sale. I may not be the cheapest price, but the value I offer the customer, in many cases is a far better deal when looked at from the larger scope of things. That said, I try to eliminate as much non-value added expenses from the cost of the product I put into it as I can. Labor is always one of the biggest factors. Of course, if you try to manufacture a product and end up working for free, you'll never get anywhere, and any gains made will be in the short term scheme of things. It's difficult when you're first starting out, and with something like making knives, the labor put into the product will eclipse everything else until you gain enough proficiency and skill that you can get it done in a timely fashion, and charge enough to make a profit eventually. Offering the customer a good value is really where to start. It will be give and take until you get a groove going and can push product out on time and in the black. One thing I've come to understand in the machinery business is that you're never going to always win, and make a clear profit. The real good sales will make up for the ones that aren't so hot. You won't get it right every single time, and the guy telling you he does is likely not telling you the truth. The key is to look at the big picture and don't get too wrapped up into having to make X amount every time. As long as you pay yourself first, and avoid working for cheapskates and jerks who want something for nothing, you'll likely do ok in the long run. Hopefully anyways IMHO of course

How many horsepower is the motor? Can it be wired for low voltage? (I'm assuming you have 230 VAC available or wouldn't likely need a converter). Hopefully so. It's gonna draw some amps on start up I imagine. You can go about it a couple of ways. I have been using static converters to run my mill and lathe for the last 15 years collectively. My lathe is a Monarch Model 61 with a 7 HP three phase motor in it. I purchased a heavy duty Phase O Matic for it when I bought it 11 years ago. I have never had any issues with stalling it out or not having enough power. I'm not a VFD guy, but they do have their uses. As far as a rotary goes, you can go a couple routes. Personally, I think you would probably get the best results running a rotary, or a balanced setup with inverter drive but frankly, for powering a simple motor such as this, a rotary converter would suit the task fine and provide steady three phase current to it all the time versus a static converter which only uses a fabricated three phase output to start the motor. Once it's running, it's only running on single phase, hence the reduction in horsepower that's common with such devices. You might likely need a starter motor to get it turning over before engaging the static converter if you were to go that route. Increased expense there. Either way, you're gonna have some draw on start up. I built my 15 HP rotary from an old Buffington phase converter I got in a trade a few years ago. For my uses (powering and testing three phase welding machines) I installed two different recepticle sand a 600 amp contactor to turn the current on and off to one of the outlets. It works very well, although I do have a high leg that runs about 40 volts over the others when at idle. It balances once under load tho. You can buy what is more or less a glorified static converter kit from places like WNY Converter on eBay and install it on your own power motor, which would then connect to the machine just as a standard three phase service would. I've found their prices to be better than just about everyone else online. I bought one of their static converters for my cold saw and it worked great until the motor puked. American Rotary is a good outfit too. Very nice and helpful on the phone. Building or modifying an existing one would probably be the cheapest route to go. Check on Craigslist, you may get lucky and find one locally. I would still call WNY personally. Their prices are very attractive and you can do a number of different routes depending on how much you wanna spend. Their kits are quite comprehensive and they provide full, detailed instructions to walk you thru it. If you can run that hammer, you can put one of their phase converter kits together. Phoenix Converter makes a good unit too, but I wasn't thrilled with the guy I talked to on the phone about some new caps for mine. That's one heck of a nice hammer. A rotary converter would run it just fine. Here's a couple pix of mine to give you an idea. Mine is on wheels, but I don't have a lot of room and it's easy to roll to the work and connect it. You can get three phase motors from a lot of different places. You could call one of the phase converter companies to get the best advice on what kind to buy for the best performance with your machine. All the types of wiring styles are a little above my pay grade. IMHO of course I run this lathe off that static converter no problem. It's a pretty serious machine, although a far cry from a truly "big lathe" A static converter will do the job, but not as efficiently as a rotary will. To buy a VFD big enough to run the motor powering that hammer, it won't be cheap. Not a quality one anyways and if I was gonna buy one, it would likely be ABB brand. Good luck with it.

Thomas, I think the SCA stuff is really, really awesome. I know very little besides the contact I had with those guys back then, and what I've read online about it. I'm sure I'll have more questions, but I try to research things first, at least as best as I can. Nobody likes spoon feeding a guy and that usually gets old real quick. I can appreciate why some guys don't have much patience for questions that can be easily answered by just doing a little looking around beforehand. I'll take a look at the armour site you mentioned and check it out. Frosty, I've noticed in my short time here that you guys (and gals) got things pretty well covered and things run smoothly. On the site I admin on, we have a wide cross section of overlapping trades and experiences. For the most part, everyone keeps each other in check. Both of you and Mr Powers obviously contribute a great deal to this site, and I've seen very little of anyone going nuts on anyone. At least as far as I've read anyways. The few instances I have seen ppl get ripped here, it was usually deserved by the looks of it. I don't have a ton of MA experience, but I trained real serious for a solid 2 years. Jun Fan/Kali with JKD concepts. I worked with my instructor, he was a security officer at the hotel we both worked in when I lived in Las Vegas. I grew up there. He was a good dude and I learned a lot form him. More about myself than anything else, but I think you know what I mean when I say that. The journey of self discovery is usually far more poignant and lasting than the actual combative skills you acquire. At least for me it was. I try to apply those principles in everything I do. Epically fail once in awhile, but that's why we got hands and knees, so we can pick ourselves up when we fall down. Your shop sounds pretty cool. I wish I had more room, I got a lot of stuff packed into my little garage. Speaking of which, I gotta get my lazy butt back to work. Thanks again for the insight guys. It really means a lot. Steve

I really appreciate your insight Thomas. You are incredibly knowledgeable and have the respect of many including myself. Im pretty clueless to the world of blacksmithing in general, but as I said I really want to learn more and apply it to what I do. That's a big reason I felt an explanation was in order. I didn't wanna come off like someone who knew about something he did not, and if I'm incorrect about something, I humbly accept the correction and try to apply the knowledge learned next time around. I try to anyways!! I'm hoping to hit the forging thing seriously (forgive the pun) this summer. I work for myself out of my garage and had big plans when I first got the forge and made some of the stuff I've already posted. Then, money got tight, I lost the part time job I had and I was basically turning machine work (welding machinery and repairs) out of my shop just to pay the bills. The smithing got put on hold since. I've gotten myself into a position recently so I can spend a few dedicated months putting some stuff together. I'll be asking questions along the way, so forgive me if I end up being a pain lol. Ill remember the Gazinta too. When I trained in martial arts, my instructor once invited a couple of SCA guys he knew thru another instructor to the class and we got to train with them for the weapons portion of the session. It was really neat working with guys with an entirely different energy and flow of movement. I can't recall offhand exactly what they had trained in specifically but they could both handle a rattan stick quite well. At the end of the day, most all the principles involved as far as edged weapon combat systems are the same tho. As Bruce Lee said, "A Kick is just a kick, a punch is just a punch". We used a system called Lameco for the Fillipino martial arts portion of our training. The SCA guys stood and moved a little differently than we did, but many of the basic techniques were similar or the same. They were both very kind and it was a blast. It would have been cool had they have brought armour and swords, but you can't have everything Our class only consisted of myself, one other guy and the instructor. We trained in his garage. Any time you can "fight" against someone besides the instructor, that's always a good thing. Again, I appreciate your responses Thomas. I look forward getting to know you and the rest of this fine bunch here in the future. Steve

Cool. Steal away! I don't have any horizontal tubes on my table, but I may just add some at some point for the heck of it. I did a rather involved set of security bar and door panels last year and welded some additional 3/8" plate to my table to increase the working surface. Now my square holes are inset about 3" into the table now. I have to cut it all back off but it will likely take some time so I've put it off for now. I'm also of the thinking that one does not need a super fancy fixture table with tapped holes and a Blanchard ground surface. I tack weld all my fixturing to the top of the table and cut it off when it's no longer needed. That T fixture has a couple tapped holes in it to secure whatever is in it a little more if need be. To date, I've used every single one of the components I've made, save for that pipe vise. I use the little vises a lot when I want one near where I'm working and don't need a big vise. Works for me anyways.

Yeah, it is more so an effort on my part not to step on anyone's toes. I don't sweat stuff like that. But know better when it comes to calling myself something I don't think a really am. I guess you could call it professional respect. Either way, it's really not important. I just do what I do, and try to put quality work out of my shop. I sincerely hope this thread doesn't end up hijacked into an academic argument of one word taken out of context. That would be most unfortunate, and what was in the beginning, what I was hoping to avoid. IMHO of course

First off, thank you for the compliments. I read a lot of your posts and know you are a man who knows this craft and knows it well. As to your being perplexed, maybe I can explain with some background regarding my experience, or lack of it.... My reasoning for not considering myself a "blacksmith" is frankly because I feel I don't posess enough of a skill set in a more well rounded manner to really consider myself one. I felt it would be best to err on the side of caution since joining this site (a site with REAL blacksmiths) and just say "I'm a guy who bangs on metal and has a little skill at it" rather than use the therm "blacksmith" and draw the ire of someone who truly is one. See, I don't know much of anything about the history of this stuff, or all the correct terminology, etc. I have no clue how to do a lot of the most basic "traditional" rudiments practiced in the craft mostly because that's just not what I'm into, and I've never had any kind of training or instruction from someone who actually knew what they were doing. To me, when I think of a "traditional blacksmith" I'm thinking of the guy who takes the metal and turns it into something without cutting the shape out or doing a lot of stock removal. The guy that can take a crude bar and turn it into a delicate leaf, all on the anvil, without "cheating" as it were, doing it how I do. That's what I meant by "all one piece" Again, pardon my lack of knowledge for not applying the correct terminology. What I'm trying to get at is, The "traditional blacksmith" can do it for real. I take all the shortcuts, then just do the forging for detail and definition. I weld everything together, never even made a forge weld, nor do I have the slightest idea how to go about it. I hope that makes sense. Such being the case, and to be perfectly honest, I really didn't wanna end up in some stupid terminology argument (I would call it something else on a non G rated site) with someone far more versed in the craft than I, simply because I called myself a "blacksmith" and didn't "have the right to"....Or stated something incorrect because I didn't know the right terminology, and saw it in my head different than it actually is to those in the know. I've been there with those kind of arguments on the Internet. Cut my teeth on some really rough boards where the slightest misspoken definition would bring the wrath of all the know it alls, trolls, bashers and what not. Of course, there are some who will try and put words into your mouth, or try and insinuate you are speaking in exhaustive terms just to create an argument with you. I don't see that here, but I've been around a whole week or so. Barely got my feet wet lol. Best to just say I'm clueless and try not to step on anyone's toes.. I absolutely WANT to learn more, and hopefully will have a chance to hook up with some ppl close by. I have a wicked Gibson Les Paul, and used to play regularly. However, I would NEVER consider myself a "guitarist" since I pretty well stink at playing guitar. I do excell at air guitar however, and even consider myself a Master of the craft.... Your insight clears my thinking up a lot on the matter. IMHO of course

Thanks man. Still a work in progress for sure. I love that hammer tree you have in your avatar. One for every day of the month! If anyone is wondering about the shiny appearance of the tools etc, I coat everything that's bare metal in my shop with clear semi gloss lacquer. Less work surfaces of course. It provides some protection for the metal against rust, can be easily recoated without any prep and if it scrapes off, you don't have nasty paint residue all over your gear.

Yeah, looking forward to it. I sold some stuff to create a buffer for a few months where I'm not gonna have to sweat the big bills. I've been voraciously reading on the site. There's some really good stuff here!