Ted T

Forge Type or Style v. Costs v. Intended Use v. Fuel Emissions v. Fuel Availability" ~ ~ Trade off Dilemma" I would like you to know that the issue you are evaluating at this time of what type of forge/fuel and size to use is not new. In fact this is an issue that may re-surface for a lot of people who do blacksmithing for a living and or a hobby. An example would be when people move to another home for instance. They find to their dismay that there are restrictions in place about noise, emissions, use of fuel (coal- Coke-Charcoal), and certain activity restraints that you have to comply with. As you no doubt know that there is a trade-off in most systems of operations. Obviously that is why you are enquiring for suggestions Be it - - “Time v. Quality”, - - Size v. Volume”, - - Strength v. Mass, - - Efficiency v. Costs, - - Material v. Availability, - - Machinery v. Labor, - - and so on and on! I understand exactly what you mean about avoiding the products of combustion released from the use of coal. As a second choice (which was my first choice) because of the low products of combustion emissions and economical availability, was to use Coke! I used Coke for about 50 years;-- But then my source for buying coke at an affordable price dried up when they shut down the steel mills near where I live. Due to being afraid of using a fuel with dirty emissions (Coal) and economical availability considerations, I changed over to propane gas. Having to use of a SMALL gas forge was a whole new ball game for me. I was not used to having to consider not being able to bring a large or irregular shaped object close to the source of heat. As an Industrial blacksmith, at times we would even have to lower a piece of material down into the fire pot from a jib crane. When I got my first SMALL three burner forge (Whisper Daddy II), I became depressed at the stark reality of losing the openness and control I enjoyed that had been used to all my life with a coke forge. It was at that point that I was asking the same sort of questions you seem to be pondering at this time. Here are some points to consider: 1. First and foremost, nothing beats a “hands-on approach” or seeing something that is of interest to you in person to help you make an “Informed” decision. I would hate to admit how many times I tried to save money and time by trying to take a shortcut of some type and it would wind up costing me much more time and money than if I had done it correctly right at first. Many of the shortcuts were mostly financially driven, but backfired in the end. 2. At this time I feel all the considerations I have explored over the past few years lead me to a simple conclusion. One propane forge type or size did not meet my needs. 3. My solution was to use three different sizes and designs of propane forges. At one time I had a reciprocating gas forge (one that reheats (re-cycles) the hot air it puts out. It would most likely do everything you mentioned that you want a forge to do. The cost of that forge would be a factor. I donated the one I had to a school. So now I have a three burner, a two burner, and a single burner. Of the three gas burners I have, I have the option to save on fuel, demand the heat I need, and/or create an opening in one of them which is a “C” style opening (clam Shell) forge that will accommodate large or odd shaped objects Again it is a trade-off between opening the area of the forge up to accept a large piece of material to be heated v. having a higher (hotter) heat. Yes I do miss the old coke forge!! My guess is that this is just the ramblings of an old man from the past “Coulda”, Woulda” , “Didda”, days of his life! I wish you the best in solving your issue! Ted Throckmorton

I hope I am not repeating what has already been said. I found this to be a very useful and informative read. Ten Hammers mentioned using heat to dry the parts. He said; “place on a warm radiator or shoot air on them to dry”. I would like to emphasize that I think heating after processing the part is of benefit and worth the time to do it! What I have done in the past that worked out well for me is as follows: Depending how messed up a part is, I recycle the part every one or two days, sometime three days. Experience teaches you the process. I take the part out of the vinegar and clean it up usually with a wire brush. I evaluate what has been accomplished by the vinegar and elbow grease to that point. And if need be, I place it back in the old or fresh vinegar and repeat the process until I feel it is done! After I am satisfied the parts are cleaned by the Vinegar and elbow-grease, I place the parts in a dense mixture of water and Baking Soda so as to neutralize the acid. Then I wash the parts off with soap and warm water, rinse well, hand dry them, and then place them in an old (one that my wife let me have) Pre-heated “Hot” Cast Iron Frying pan with the source of heat turned off. The parts heat enough through induction to purge themselves of moisture, and I do not feel that I would be messing with any tempering issues that way (I hope!). Example: About two years ago I had a bucket of tools that I had bought at a Pawn Shop, brought it home and left it in a shed. I did not know that they had been sitting under a leak in the roof for a couple of years. In fact the bucket still had a little sitting water in it. Here are some examples of the content of the bucket. Calipers, a Monkey Wrench, Screwdrivers, Open end Wrenches, Sockets, plus several other tools. The monkey wrench was seized up as well as some of the other tools. All of the tools were oxidized and packed with grease and dirt that had hardened. I was surprised and was very impressed the first time I tried the process of using Vinegar and then Heating the part to dry it. By having too many irons in the fire (or laziness) I forgot about oiling up this bunch of old tools after I had finished cleaning them up in the fashion I just described. I discovered that I had left them on my “Project To Do Shelf” for about three weeks before I realized that I needed to oil them. To my surprise, there was no sign of re-oxidation at all. That entire batch became functional tools again. I want to mention one more thing that has been a big help to me. When you are cleaning a large or ill-regular shaped object of some type, you can save on the amount of Vinegar to use, or having to find a container large enough to use. Just by placing everything in a (large or small) plastic bag. It will take on the shape of the object, and with a little bag/vinegar management practice, wooooooola it works!

I believe this is one of the most important and responsible topics that could be brought up here at I Forge Iron. Thank you all for taking a responsible stand on this topic! Even if you disagree with my opinion, please error on the side of safety with this issue! To disarm new craftsmen of the potential dangers of welding or cutting galvanize products may have a serious outcome. I feel a great in-justice may be done to unwary readers when someone who is not fully informed about the reality of the cause and effect of Galvanized Poisoning give there untried opinion that says it’s OK, that all you have to do is just drink milk. I think milk may help settle your stomach if I remember correctly, but what about the long term effects? It seems as though some of the content contained in a few posts that I have read over the last few years that have mentioned the topic of “Galvanized, zinc, fumes, and milk”, have a tendency to water down the real or potential long lasting effects of Galvanize Poisoning. They would say something like “I have welded on galvanize for 263 years and all I done was drink milk and I am just fine”. Of course I am exaggerating. But posts like that seem disarms the reader into thinking that it is no big deal. BUT, galvanize poisoning is a big deal and an issue that should be taken as a priority to learn how to manage the use of it safely. I can assure you it is a big deal because I have experienced the stark reality of the very real and long lasting problems that derive from welding or being exposed to Galvanized Steel fumes with out proper ventilation. When I was young (in my 30’s) I needed a job real bad to support my large family that I had adopted. So when we would say something about the lack of ventilation in our shop, they told us that they had a pile of applications on the desk, that if we did not like the conditions that existed we could be replaced. I have had to live with the outcome of this issue first hand. And it was not pretty! So with out going into the details of a real long story, I will tell you this; Back in the 60’s at the University of Utah hospital, when I was going through treatment they also called it “Products of Combustion that had settled the Bone Morrow” or Galvinize Poisoning. I am no doctor; I am just repeating what they told me. Story: I was the one of the lucky ones out of the four welders who worked in our shop at that time. Within two years, one of them died of a heart attack; he was only in his 30’s. They don’t know what caused the attack. I lost the full and effective use of my left hand, arm, and leg. It took between 4 ½ years to 5 years for me to have full and comfortable use of my arm and leg again. Plus I had to have a stomach operation from taking too many aspirins that I was told to take by the doctors. . Oh, and the guy who took my place is now a total vegetable. With in a year after taking my place, he had the same symptoms that I had. He never recovered. And the fourth guy only did bench welding and was never required to carbon arc and weld all day inside of garbage trucks or on galvanize pipe. He was just fine. No doubt that some people will never have a sever reaction to galvanize poisoning as other people may have. We need to recognize that what will adversely affect one person will not necessarily have any effect on another person. Just like medication reactions have on different people. The old (WWII) doctor who treated my fellow welder gave us the following summary of information. During the Second World War a problem developed within the vast numbers of welders that supported the war effort. The government had hired thousands of women to become welders in the arms plants. All of the able bodied men were off fighting the war. Health problems started to show up with some of the welders. It turned out to be galvanize poisoning. But the problem was that it only showed up randomly. The Doctors scenario was that when several people were doing the exact same type of welding and had the same exposure to fumes, some got ill, and some did not show any ill affect at all. This same old doctor came to the conclusion that it was dependent on an individual persons ability to resist the effects of how, and if the same amounts of exposure would affect them at all. I believe each contributor needs to be heard and what they say needs to be evaluated by the reader. Even if you disagree with my experience, at least I Forge Iron have given us a platform to give our views to banter back and forth. In the end, the reader has to make a decision of how close to the edge of life they want to live (or be sick, or die). My very best to you all! Ted Throckmorton

Rodney, Prayers for your wife and your self are priority. Just a note: I find that when someone from our brotherhood of this blacksmithing community Requests Prayer, it sticks well in this old forgetful mind of mine. I believe that why I am able remember them in prayer through out the day is due to working out in my blacksmithing shop which causes me to relate and think about people of like minds. I think it is an old man kind of thing!! So having blacksmith tools and being around them is useful for other things also! May the Lord Bless Your Wife, You, and the Care givers who can help make a difference with the guidance of the Word. Ted Throckmorton

That is Good News!!!! - I see that you know about the best news! It seems as though we just cannot give enough thanks for prayers realized. But it is known! Ted Throckmorton

Ed, I agree with Bentiron, please take care of yourself during this process. Baby Bella needs a Grandfather that is active and healthy as she gets older also. Thank you for your up-date. By placing updates, we know how to pray for your needs. The patterns of life cycles indicate that it would go without saying that your whole family has been impacted by this stressful, but blessed event! My prayers will reflect you and your families needs for a continued stength as you travel, and to be able to be alert as you experence this process togeather. As I read your post, my thoughts came to the Word. Wings Like Eagles Isaiah 40:31 (English Standard Version) 31. but they who wait for the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings like eagles; they shall run and not be weary; they shall walk and not faint. You and yours are remembered here. Ted Throckmorton

VERY Clever!! Thank you! I plan on trying that! I am a jig men at heart The best to you! Ted Throckmorton

Thank you, thank you, thank you men! Good ideas, and I am going to put them into practice today! Ric, that is so true even though I try to keep the floor clean!

Thanks Frank, Very nice! That is the kind of product I am talking about!! So now I am taking notes!! --> Hint, Hint, for any and all Ideas. For some reason I have locked into the beauty I see in the Repousse designs of thicker Leaves and flowers hot forged.

Ed, I have a poor memory, but the one who counts has a perfect memory. Your Family contunues to be in the forefront of our prayers. At this time; I feel Proverbs 3:5 expresses what I feel in my heart for you and yours (baby bella). Thank goodness for the Word! Ted Throckmorton

Thank You Frank!

Now that is the old FROSTY Talking again!!!!!!! I am so glad that ya made it through, I know that things were pretty dicey! But your back. Ted Throckmorton

Frank, you are right on! I was taught "Repousse" was to work the metal cold. So after my training I combined what I had learned with (hot) forging. When working a piece of steel and it starts to become work hardened by working it cold, then we would heat treat to Stress Releif the piece and then continue working it. What you posted was exactly what I meant by combining Repousse and forging (hot). My interests have shifted to back to doing this type of work. I find it very satisfying! Ted Throckmorton

That is wonderful work, thanks for sharing with us. Many people are not aware of the potential Repousse has in enhancing what they produce with blacksmithing by combining the techniques with forging. I was fortunate enough to have had some “one on one” training with Nahum G. Hersom of the Golden Pheasant Art Metal Shop of Boise, Idaho. To the loss of people who appreciate Blacksmithing and Metal Art, Naham (Grandpa) Died on April 1st of this year, he was just about 93 years old. I will miss his “sometime” phone calls! He was a skilled blacksmith and was also a true Repousse Artist. Nahum placed emphasis on the design and using techniques of various types of repousse work and the making of tools for this (his) special to this craft. He taught his students hammering techniques, how to stretch, shrink, and raise the various thicknesses of metal for forming of modern and traditional architectural flowers, rosettes, medallions, and acanthus style leaves. He taught the basic technique of the stake method of metal forming; however he also demonstrated and discussed the lead and pitch methods. Now that I am getting long in the tooth! (70 +) I am going back to doing more Repousse because it is easier on my body! Thanks for sharing; maybe someone else will become interested in a wonderful craft! Ted Throckmorton

Well, beings your from Indianapolis, I would expect that you would learn FAST! That was supposed to be a PUN!! Welcome to I Forge Iron! I beleive it is wisdom to take a little time and get used to this site. Read, read, read, and read some more. For example: When you learn how to paint oil paintings, including color combining, brush types and strokes, space usage, depth of field, and on and on, then and only then you may paint any pitcher you would like, nicely. The same principle with Blacksmithing. Basics Basics, Basics - then move ahead to make what you can dream of! I wish you the best in your quest to create with steel. Ted Throckmorton

Just checking up on ya!!! - - Please Keep going and find a way to fill your dream of becomming a blacksmith. We actually care about you!! Ted Throckmorton

Welcome to "I Forge Iron". Three weeks!!! WOW. - - Just keep on forging and learning! If what you have accomplished in three weeks is an indicator of your "Drive" and "Abilities", I cannot imagine what you will be able to produce in three months from now! The sky is the limit! - But please include SAFETY as you decision maker as you learn! The best to you! - - Future of Blacksmithing in the making I beleive! Ted Throckmorton - - AKA Ted T

Welcome to I Forge Iron! I am glad you have a new interest! Please undestand that we do not want to dampen your spirt of excitment about learning the craft of Blacksmithing. So I will give you my opinion of what may accelerate your learning curve to learn the craft. 1. First thing beyound reading, video's, and internet, I would find a good blacksmith in your area. I am from Utah also and happen to know that you are sourounded by several well qualified Blacksmiths. Spend some time with the blacksmith and you will save a lot of time and be able to direct you energy in a productive direction. 2. To find a blacksmith near you, and become associated with a great group of blacksmiths, contact the Bonneville Forge Council. http://bfcsmiths.com/ You are welcome to contact me, and I would do all I could to help you get started. Ted Throckmorton - Duchesne Utah

Happy Birthday Matt. From Grandma Ted Thank you Frank and everyone else for the class! I am always learning as it should be with a Blacksmith wannbe. You guys make this site work! Thank You! Ted Throckmoron

Over many years of trying to improve my skills as a blacksmith, I have tried not to miss an opportunity to listen the handfuls of what I considered to be highly skilled blacksmiths and metal workers discuss, and sometime cuss about ways of accomplishing a specific process. It has been made clear many times that the amply skilled members of I Forge Iron carry on this healthy and educational tradition of expressing “with vigor “and being in disagreement at times about THEIR philosophy of correct principles of craftsmanship. - - - I believe this his healthy for all of us, I know that always learn from the “Pro’s and Con’s” that are discussed here Like a parrot, I will repeat what I have been told. For over a half century, at times I have trained under the guidance of several exceptionally skilled Blacksmiths and Repousse Artists. Each one was very specific about how I was to stand at the anvil, hold my hammer, how to dress tools, heat treatment, and safety considerations, and many other specific elements of the crafts. I considered each one of them to be independently acknowledged as a Highly Skilled Craftsman. Their finished product spoke volumes about what skills they must possess. BUT; many times what one or two of them were teaching me was in total contradiction to what one or two others had taught me. Yikes, what a predicament! - - No not really! As I grew older I learned that I had to be responsible for myself and decide “What Was Productive For ME”! I realized that all of them were correct to some degree, but only in certain stages or applications of use as I used them. For someone else I am sure they found something quite different! An example would be the dreaded dilemma of where to place the thumb while hammering. I can say that a world Champion Ferrier associate of mine would say that if anyone did not hold their thumb on the top of the hammer handle when forging, did not know what they were doing! On the other hand I have had the total opposite expressed to me by “Top of the Latter” blacksmiths. Early on I tried the thumb on the top of the handle. It did not work for me while doing heavy forging, but it works out very well for me when I am Planishing and doing Repousse! Accuracy/Hammer Control is one of our skills that I believe sets us apart. In the end, I have come to believe that “The Proof Is In The Pudding”. If it works well for YOU, then do it. If it doesn’t work for you, then try something else. I have come to the conclusion that only you really know what is effective and works well for yourself!

Now I know why I could not find meaningful words to express my thoughts and feelings to you in my post. They were living in your heart, and also in the hearts of the many people who Andrew touched with his life. Thank you for allowing us to be a part of this expression of life. Ted Throckmorton

Welcome to I Forge Iron. You are from my Grand Parents Home Land. Only a suggestion: I suggest that you learn the basics while using standard (crank or electric) blowers and such. When you have learned the triditional basic skills with some degree of competency, then modify and adjust to a triditional style of some sort! Learning the basics first will take you to where ever you want to go. Ted Throckmorton

Thanks for letting us know Steve! The best to you and yours. Ted Throckmorton

Please show us what you did with it! I still have one that I use just for show and tell. I was a Gandie Dancer on a rail road. It brings back a lot of memories (some good & some not so good, from 20 below & Freezing on up to extreamly hot). The highly skilled men that I worked with used to have contests to see who was the most accruate when striking. They would turn a dixie cup up side down and with one blow punch the bottom out without damaging the side of the cup. Depending on the type of wood the tie was made of, my partner (290 pounds of work musle) many times would finish driving the spike all the way in with one strike after I had set the spike. In order to swing a spike hammer and be able to last all day, you had to learn how to use the rebound of the return energy when you hit the spike. If done with skill, there was enough energy returning back into the head of the hammer (rebound energy) to give it lift, while all you did was guide the tork direction of the hammer back over your head. I use the same principal when I forge as I have seen many others do. Sorry , got caught up in an old memory! Take care and enjoy your self, Ted Throckmorton

Prayer is ongoing from Utah. We lift you and Patty with prayers of Healing, Peace, and the Continuous Covering of the GRACE of GOD. We also pray that the hand of God will guide Patty’s care givers, and all of those that provide support to Patty and yourself in any way. Mark, I have found that the feelings and the intentions of my heart are far more complex and intent with puropse than my limited vocabulary could adequately come close to expressing. That is why I am so thankful to be able to pray to the one who understands all of our needs and can do something about it! Greater is he that is ………………… Ted Throckmorton