Mainely,Bob

Looks like a previous post went into the great beyond instead of here so I have a reply and a question. My reply was to Danger`s point about visual references in another post but also hits on something Jnewman said about customer feedback and wants/needs. When dealing with things like boats,old farm houses and other non-normal things it`s important to make sure your work visually blends with the "big picture".If you build plumb,level and square and your work is the only thing within eye line that IS then it will stand out as something that does NOT belong.Something to keep in mind when pricing is "building to suit" meaning building something to fit in a non-level,plumb,etc setting should be priced higher as it`s more work. My old co-worker,Hey Jude,used to say"Build to suit or go another route".Sometimes it`s just faster and better to tear it all out and start from new rather than patch or repair.Likewise,if everything else is out of whack then a curving or freeform design may be easier and faster to build than trying to make everything lean in different directions to match surroundings. The question I have speaks to Jnewman`s post.How many charge for estimates? When I gave free estimates I was overrun by prospective customers.As soon as I started charging a fee,usually $100 per hour,payable upon arrival then knocked off the bill at the end of the project,my estimating took a nose dive but my work stayed level and profit increased. More time in the shop as the tire kickers no longer took it up.Productivity and profit went up as I spent far less time dragging info out of the folks I did estimates for and the estimates were for serious people who wanted real work in the near future and had done THEIR homework in order to cut back on my $100 per hour visits. Try making your shop rate your stated estimate fee and see if it makes a difference.You can always waive it if you feel a need to.

Now that you mention it,I completely forgot about the sight references! One thing I learned when working with boats,old buildings and other things not plumb,level or square is to be prepared to build to visually blend with the big picture. If nothing is plumb,level or square and you build your work to look that way then it can only stand out as something that does NOT belong. As my co-worker,Hey Jude,used to say"Build to suit or take another route".

In the wooden boat world those big chisels are called a "slick".They are used for paring. Think of it being used to cut wood like a wood plane only in a tight area where a plane will not fit. The reason they have that long handle is so you can grip it with both hands,tuck the handle under your arm and use your upper body and shoulder to power it. A traditional slick had the socket bent so the handle would clear the work when in use and they usually had a slight crown to the edge to make them easier to steer in the cut and also a bit of rocker(convex along the back)to the blade so pushing down on the handle caused the edge to climb out of the cut. A very useful tool and still in demand up here in Maine.

It`s real important for me to set reference points,usually at least 3 so I can triangulate each measurement. For the steps some key points are the start,stop,center point and distance between floors or decks. I make sure to check everything for square,plumb,level and note any variations from it.If anchoring to the tread then measure distance from center and amount of rotation from your known point to each anchor point and drop(or rise) from last known point.If anchoring to an apron(the vertical that runs perpendicular to the tread following the path of the handrail)then as long as the apron(what we called it,I`m not sure what the joiners called it)is a consistent radius(check it) then you have more wiggle room. As mentioned,do what you can on site and in order to maintain those parameters while adding "lettuce"(we called it fruit salad) and final welding be sure to get references for the assemblies too.We used thin ply and "joggle sticks" to chart this and transfer it to the jig.Once you`re used to them,joggle sticks and story sticks are more accurate than a tape is,especially if you "burn and inch" (or in my case ten,it`s easier to spot a potential mistake). The whole point to making all these measurements and reference points is to recreate the space in the shop.Do whatever you need to in order to achieve that.If you`re careful and accurate then as long as it doesn`t spring too badly when you release it from the jig then it will fit on site.If it does spring(don`t just cut it all loose,release in increments) then you still have the jig to anchor and bend from and the reference points to aim for. Correct welding sequence will minimize distortion as you know. That`s all I can remember right now.Hope it helps. Spiral stairs can be a real challenge.I like to come well armed. :)

Sounds like some are comparing apples and oranges here. Coming from an industry stand point there`s usually 2 accepted methods that I know of to price work and that`s the bid or estimate/contract approach where you look at a job and say "We can do it for this much" and are held to it.Usually you bid against competition for this type of work although I`ve seen people use a competitor`s estimate as a starting point for you to show him why he should pay more to have you do it. When doing or bidding this type of work it`s VERY important to record everything in detail so you can both know where you can improve productivity and how much money you "left on the table" to be factored into future bids or return work.State and federal contracts are usually handled this way.With alittle digging you can find out what the budget and other bids were after the fact. For those uncharted waters that the bid can`t or won`t cover there is always the "Time and material"(T&M) job.You have a shop rate(usually per man,per hour)plus other factors that result in you getting a solid return on your overhead plus profit.T&M jobs need to be tracked and recorded also so the techniques and approaches involved can be improved and applied to future jobs.Specialized skills/equipment=more money.Rented or hired specialized skills/equipment=WAY more money(because of extra time,trouble and responsibility). There are factors involved for both type of job that need to be addressed as they don`t fall in the "under the hammer" time slot.Admin costs,new tooling or machines,transportation and other off-site costs,subcontracting,skill levels and attrition in employees,The economy,etc are always variables that impact the cost at that particular time and place. IME,when talking about Art all that goes out the window.Art(and that includes creative ironwork) throws wide the door to the "perceived value" arena and anyone who doesn`t ask "what`s the budget?" is setting themselves up to leave a big chunk of change on the table. In the past I and others I know have lost jobs by bidding creative work too low,the prospective customer felt we bid it too cheap to take the time to do a proper job.We were looking at art work thru industrial lenses. I`ve also worked as a craftsman with "conceptual artists" who wanted the lowest bidder within spec so they can put more money in their pocket. That being said there are exceptions to every rule.We once had to manufacture bearing bosses for a Coast Gaurd cutter stabilizer system because the originals were cast units and made in England.There were none sitting on shelves anywhere in the world and the boat HAD to get done and off the rails.I mentioned in a meeting that we could produce welded steel assemblies that would meet or exceed the iron castings and we were given the thumbs up. Time and material job(to include making tooling and the learning curve)became the price for follow on units and we became the sole supplier of these highly inflated parts.When I left the yard they were being produced by semi-skilled workers and sold for approx. 10+ times what they cost to produce(I never was able to find out how much they actually sold them for). Likewise I`ve been on jobs where 2 workers(me being one)were paid the same as 6 because that`s what we had to beat.BTW-The job was bid for 6 guys,14 days.Jude and I did it in six 10 hour days.The reason we got the job and the rate was the other shop couldn`t start it for 3 weeks.We could start tomorrow.

There was a fairly stout vise made from channel in one of the posts here awhile back.Can`t say for sure but I think it may have been by Territorial Forge or someone close to that name.Maybe under the "Show Me Your Vise" thread. Hofi(least I think it was him) also posted pics of an industrial sized vise that is bigger than anything I`d seen to date and that includes things I`ve seen in shipyards,heavy manufacturing and oilfields.

What do I do for a living? Why,I`m the "metal guy"!! What else would you be if you weld,fab,fit,forge,machine,raise,chase,tinknock,pipefit,etc. Plus make and modify motorcycles,cars,tools,blades,machinery,jewelry,art,etc? Of course you need the tools to do all those things too. Hello,my name is Bob and I have a tool problem... Two of them actually, 1-I need more tools,always.(luckily I know how to make most of them) 2-I need a MUCH bigger shop to both use them in and store them while I`m waiting to use them.Make that 2 shops.No,a bigger shop and a warehouse... :D

If you absolutely have to TIG in a slight cross breeze then a gas lens can help too. Even higher flow thru a lens won`t help you if you got one of those big floor fans aimed at you.Heat must have really got to him to have forgotten about the shield gas.

One question Frosty,Does soapstone work on a blackboard?More importantly can you erase it? :o

Like the gate.Looking forward to seeing pics of it all tacked together with the cut out plate in place. What I really want to know about is that hardtail frame and wheel on the other work table.What kind project you got goin` there? Still also waiting for a pic of the right side of that pan too.From the pic of the primary side that`s one choice machine!

Been away for awhile due to the power being out in our area for a few days.We didn`t get the snow(rain instead) but sure got the wind! I would go down to the local home center and look for something called coupling nuts.They look like a standard nut only about 5 times thicker.Try to get ones that aren`t cad plated,cad=bad. Larger plumbing supply houses may have something similar that`s used to couple pipe hangers to all thread stand offs. The hex exterior shape would go along with the whole wrench theme now that I think about it. Something to use next time around! If I was going to use brass Then I`d go with silver solder as others have suggested.

Try Speedy Metals.They are willing to work with small orders and ship fast. You can call them toll free @866-616-1018.

During break one day I took a rather large combination wrench we never used and cut it in half and welded a thin band to either end that I had shaped to fit my head.I used to wear it under my hardhat when guided tours came thru. Needless to say,management loved it(not).

Nope!Didn`t say anything wrong. There seems to be a trend lately of restating things.Soon someone will come along and agree with only the last person to say it but not the 3 other folks who said exactly the same thing previously. Maybe if enough people say exactly the same thing then that would be the point we reach a consensus?Not real sure how that sort of thing works. BTW-I personally think it would be a good idea to try gas welding of WI channel.Have we reached consensus yet? I wouldn`t worry about it Southshore.They tell me it`s not about getting there first,it`s about getting the knowledge out there. :rolleyes:

There it is! As they say"Chrome don`t get you home",unless you live in the local hospital. Surprisingly enough the old wrenches go for far less money up here,usually scrap prices. Nicer shapes and decorations(like brand names) too!

I`ve done it for other people for use on toolboxes.Used antique curved and S shaped wrenches both times.First time just threw them in the fire to anneal them and then drilled for brass posts that I turned tenons on one end and internal threads on the other. Second time the guy didn`t want to spend alot of money so I just brazed threaded bungs on the back of them for him. I`ve done the first process with decking spikes and bronze posts for a ship`s joiner`s tool chest too.The wife thinks she`d like something similar for the kitchen using spikes from local shipwrecks. Also made a towel rack out of an old barefoot auger.Cut down that would make a neat longer drawer pull. :)

That would be Maine,with an E.

Man,you just have to let go and learn to compromise!You said it yourself you ended up doing the work for 6 people.Were the other 5 incompetent?If they were getting paid an hourly wage and you insisted on doing their work then why not just let you do it?Most folks are like that. Either learn to communicate with workers or just resign yourself to the fact that you have to do it all and you`ll burn out and die young,poor or both. You already communicate with customers right?How far would you have gotten if you had to read their minds?Use those same skills with employees. It`s not that you are the only one that can do this stuff correctly,that`s your ego BSing your rational brain.In reality it DOES NOT have to be done exactly your way.It does however,have to be done in a way that is acceptable to the customer and yet protects your reputation.Set clear guidelines and then let them do what they will do within those guidelines.Different is not wrong if you land on the same spot. On that railing job,why did you pick up the lead instead of the phone?If you had set clear standards then the job was obviously not done.A 5 minute phone call would have offered options like returning and finishing it himself or paying you shop rate to complete it. If you do hire an old hand you will have to show him respect.Respect his judgement and his skills.Think in democratic terms and you may learn from him too. Start in with the dictatorship and telling him which direction to wrap the leads and he`ll walk just like I did.

Well,here I go again. What FE said is exactly correct,you only get what you communicate. As an insight to young minds the biggest wake up call I ever got was working as a Drill Sgt.for the Army.The recruits ran the spectrum from crack heads and dealers,mental cases(seriously),single mothers(gender integrated training and housing),gangbangers,neo-nazis,and just plain patriotic kids.The first 3 weeks was just trying to get them in the proper mindset and keep them off one another.Some were just not cut out for military duty and we did everything we could to find them and put them back on the bus.One of my specialties was dealing with problem children.They sent me the worst and they either improved or I forced them out.Every day I took the time to tell them what they did well that day or what they were doing that was bringing them closer to that bus ride home.I also used alot of peer pressure.Starting out I was tough but always objective and consistent. I like to think that what impressed my kids(and I thought of them that way,like we were a family)was that they saw me doing everything they were doing and doing it faster and better at twice their age.It was my job to set the example and I went above and beyond to do that. I told them in very specific terms exactly what the standards were and then demonstrated the task to standard so they could see it as well as hear it(sometimes they`re lost till the see it done).I never asked them IF they understand I always asked them WHAT they understand,which meant they had to read it back to me,which forced them to pay close attention to what was being said and shown.I never took anything for granted,I demonstrated everything for them,how to make a bed,how to mop a floor,how to scrub a toilet,how to eat a meal(I was the last one thru the chow line.When I was done THEY were done),how to pack for a roadmarch,how to clean and maintain ALL thier gear including the barracks they slept in.If I required them to climb a tree backwards or hug a tree 3 feet off the ground then at some point they were shown how that was done.There was a reason for everything we did and I was always open to questions pertaining to the task at hand.You could ask any question,for a price. During the final weeks before graduation(mostly in the field)I encouraged those who had made it that far to question things(maybe my thinking,NEVER my authority).I wanted them to be able to think for themselves and understand that there was a sound and solid reason for everything we did.Poorly conceived or thoughtless questions still brought consequences but if you challenged and were wrong but your challenge stemmed from independent thought then you most times got a discussion and a pass. 80-90% of any platoon I graduated I would have no problem serving beside(I was infantry).The rest were rear area admin types who were competent enough for what they needed to do.They got that way because I helped them re-make themselves into what they needed to be.Most civilians feel military training has no place in everyday life.I know different,I`ve seen the results of training to work as a member of a team and to focus on the task at hand no matter what the conditions.It opens your mind to something larger than your personal comfort zone. My point is,yes there are alot of borderline personalities out there and it seems most of the up and coming generation have their eye on he path of least resistance(one of my sons included).They only do what they have to until they`re SHOWN different.In my mind and IME the average worker will only work as hard as they think the boss works.SHOW them how hard you work,challenge them to keep up and most importantly,reward them when they either keep up or especially when they exceed expectations.Cash is nice but words of encouragement and especially things like giving them credit for an excellent job in front of the customer go a long way to building confidence and self esteem. IMO you need to not just shoot for making a worker as good as you are,you need to look toward making his BETTER than you are.If you bring him challenging work,let him know how much you value his time and skills and pay him a good wage that keeps pace with his talents and skill(possibly with bonuses for beating time or cost estimates while keeping quality)then your only problem will be how do you plan to compete after he goes out on his own? First step,start wading thru the knuckleheads...

Differences between belt grinders and stone grinders Belts are cheaper than stones and come in a wider variety of grit sizes " " easier to change than stones and you just have to maybe adjust tracking rather than balance and true it like a stone. Belts grind cooler than stones under the same pressure and grit size. A belt sander usually has more and better access to the area where the grinding is taking place A belt sander`s radius can be varied by changing the contact wheel.With a stone grinder you are stuck with the stone size. If you decide to use them,jigs are available for belt grinders as well as a lot of different tool rests.Stone grinders have a much more limited variety but you can get around this by fabbing your own bases. You can make or buy a powerful variable speed belt grinder usually for a lot less than a powerful variable speed stone grinder. Most stone grinders are cheap. Stones last longer than belts(usually) I`m sure others will think of additional points both pro and con.

What DennisG said! Over the years I have put up with alot from employers and have handed it back too.My big question was always "If you don`t trust me then why`d you hire me?". I think it was Patton who said"Never tell a man how to do something.Tell him what you want and then get out of his way and watch". The last fab shop I worked for started out as a part time job after my 40 hours at the boatyard.Things were fine as long as Mike and I were doing the work for extra money.We usually talked things over and decided how to proceed together. As soon as Mike decided to go full time he asked me to quit the yard and work full time for him.It quickly went from a democracy to a dictatorship.I left the day he complained that I had wrapped the mig lead in a counterclockwise fashion and he wanted it wound clockwise. He`s still in business but goes thru employees faster than anyone else in the area. The idea of talking to the voc-ed teacher is a good one.I`ve had a student tag along with me in a number of different companies.I guess they thought since I was an NCO in the Army reserve then I knew how to train young men. I found the trick was to always keep them busy and to be a very specific in my communication.I explained things in depth once,asked if there were any questions and then showed them by doing what I expected.Once shown I again asked for questions.If there were none then I handed the work to them while I either prepped parts or another job nearby.If I expected them to always be busy that meant I had to be busy too. At the end of the day I again asked if there were any questions about what we had done that day.I also expected them to carry a small notebook and pen with them(I always did)and told them to write down things like weld parameters for the machine they used,type of rod or wire,Type of shield gas and flowmeter settings,techniques specific to a particular job and anything else they thought important. At the end of the day I looked at their book. Second time around on a job or when doing a job close to one we had already done I only went over things that were different or things to watch out for(like safety issues) and then asked for questions. I also made it a point to put them with other workers or sub contractors once they had proved to be competent.After the job or at the end of the day I asked what they had learned and expected new insight.The point was that there`s other ways to do a job beside mine.Some are better,some are not so good,some are just different.I always wanted these guys to know the reasoning behind the process and to be able to operate outside the company we worked for.The point was to get them to stand on their own and think for themselves.To do any less is to put blinders on them and you`ll have to commit to the fact you`ll do all their thinking for them.I tried to keep them challenged and feeling good about the work and themselves.If they looked forward to coming to work then I felt I was successful. Perhaps if you`re unwilling to release control of the work it would be a better bet to hire an office geek.Someone who knows nothing about metalwork but knows how to run an office and talk to folks on the phone.That alone could free up much of your time. Another approach would be to take someone who knows metalwork but is better with his head than he is with his hands and train him to do estimating and drumming up work instead of just shop work. If your heart is in getting your hands dirty then find a part time helper.There are plenty of smart old hands out there that have been "downsized" and maybe can`t keep up with the young blood or spend 8 hours kneeling on steel or standing on a ladder everyday.They`re still smart and want to work and they can still work layout or cut to a line standing at a bench. You`re a smart guy Larry,I`m sure you know alot of people who either fit the bill or know where those people are at,go out and find them. One last thought.I was always happiest and made the most money working either flat rate or commission.If you pay a man by the hour he gets the same if he busts his butt or is sitting in the truck.Give him incentives and he`ll work hard,fast and continuous.Something I always kept in mind.

If you decide to go with a variable speed then stay away from the Delta bench grinders. All the woodworkers I know who bought them said they had both bearing and electrical problems. Most replaced them with either a Baldor or a Delta low speed model. If you are doing just blades and grind alot after heat treat then you may want to look at a Tormec low speed water bath grinder.No need to worry about ruining the temper with one of those.Jet also makes a more affordable copy of the rather pricey Tormec.

I`m going to jump in here and ask afew questions because I am also in the planning/collecting stages of building a tire hammer. I know that some sort of lube is needed on any power hammer and that the scale generated will tend to combine with that lube to make an abrasive condition and cause wear. the favored lube seems to be oil as most folks believe that enough oil will help flush the grit out rather than hold it like grease would. I`ve seen treadle hammers that use rollers to support and guide the ram but have yet to see any pics of a power hammer that uses them.Does anyone know of any examples that have stood up long term? The other thing that caught my attention was the UHMW plastic as I had worked with that and Delrin as guides and bearings while working in an aluminum extrusion plant and while it wore out faster than metal the engineers favored it because it was their opinion that the grit imbedded itself in the plastic and as a result caused less wear on the more expensive machine parts.They felt it was cheap enough that it could be considered a throw away or sacrificial part.Most of these plastic parts spent alot of working time covered with drawing oil and it didn`t seem to bother them. The dry saw guides were being lubed with graphite when I started in an effort to keep them dry and have chips bounce off rather than stick.They were experimenting with spray on dry lubes such as wax and other compounds(Sandaro Dry Slide was one) but I left before they found a product that worked well,was readily available and cheap. My questions here are does anyone know of a dry lube that could be used with UHMW that would be better than oil?Another question is how does the plastic hold up to the side stresses of a tire hammer ram?

I have seen 2 different welders working on different sides of large pipe yes,have even done that when the pipe was large enough to act as a shield between the two welders.Large diameter pipeline work was something we did like that,usually each working a side(from 6 to 12) rather than one top and the other bottom.Welding different sides of a bulkhead seam after the root pass was another. Large diameter didn`t sound to me like what the original poster was talking about,I may have misread though.He said that welder A "catches" the weld from welder B and one is always welding while one is cleaning.This led me to believe the pipe had to be small diameter and each welder`s pass would take only one or two rods.I also didn`t get the split lead thing either. I have welded 12"+ pipe assemblies in the shop on rollers with just flanges or fittings on the ends.You just jack the rollers up far enough to clear the fittings.The assemblies for big jobs were mostly fabbed on rollers in the shops I worked in and then rough cut.After being delivered to the site the assenblies were hung,final fit and welded in place.Most times working off ladders,scaffolding or lifts. As far as ventilation goes,I was thinking about welding in an already crowded overhead in an area where the "sucker tube" needed that lag time cleaning between rods to clear the air.Probably should have stated that was my experience. If venting was a problem then there was always the dreaded full face supplied air mask that everyone just couldn`t wait to put on and wear for hours but I was trying to forget that.