Railroad Anvil?

[nashdude]

I'm sure this subject has been beat to death, but I'm gonna play the Newb card and give you some fodder

I'm just starting my knife shop---got some soft firebricks on order, scrounging around for scrap steel, designing my coal forge, etc. While visiting my wife's family in Tulsa this week, I ran across an old anvil in her grandfather's yard amongst some railroad track. Well, he wouldn't come off the anvil, but he did give me a long chunk of track---about two feet at least.

Here are the questions...

What would be the best way to outfit this as an anvil?

Should I get someone to cut it with an OA torch, or can I use a cut-off?

What's the best way to add a hardy hole to it?

Is the horn or pritchel hole necessary?

Thanks in advance for being gentle :D

[Glenn]

Stand it on end for use as an anvil, putting all the mass under the impact area of the hammer. Lay it on it's side for both inside and outside curves (horn and swage), if you need a hardie hole, weld some square tubing to the flat base so that it is level with the end of the track when standing on end.

As with any anvil, first align it to north, make the working face flat and level in all directions, and at an appropriate working height for you. This is usually just above knuckle high when you stand straight with a closed fist, then adjust higher or lower to suit your needs. Most anvils end up somewhere between knuckle high and where the wrist meets the arm.

Next turn the anvil every which way but loose, and turn it to all points of the compass. Use the anvil to it's full potential, using the sides, ends, top, bottom, inside and outside curves, and more. The anvil is after all a multipurpose tool. Enjoy yourself and your time at the forge while you look for a real anvil. There is one out there with your name on it.

[saintjohnbarleycorn]

the one that I saw was cut on a doall bandsaw. cut a horn into it and then sanded and polished.

[BeaverDamForge]

I started with a piece of track that had a crude horn cut, a wicked curve to the top (one side 1/4" lower than the other), and too much of the flange removed to be stable. It had little rebound and dented easily. It was a good place to start, made me really appreciate the 100lb Fisher I was given... hammer blows are 50% more efficient now.

I had bolted it down onto a tie plate, and used the holes in that for 3/4" hardy tools.

Good Luck!

Edited December 29, 2008 by BeaverDamForge

[MetalMuncher]

I have a piece of railroad track and it works beautifully, aside from the absence of a hardy, its probably second best to a real anvil. The only issue I'm having is the ring it makes, a real loud high pitch ring that will destroy your hearing in no time. Be sure to wrap chains or something around it. Just my .2$. God bless!

[element]

Align the anvil to the north?

[MetalMuncher]

Yeah whats with lining it with north? Old tradition?

[nashdude]

Thanks for the posts, all! Giving me a lot to consider.

Stand it on end for use as an anvil, putting all the mass under the impact area of the hammer.

Good thought, but the track has little surface area as it is---about 2 3/4" by however long I leave it. Standing on it's end, I drasticly reduce even that. I'm sure I could use it for knifing, but I'd never be able to blacksmith---even newb stuff---with such little area to strike upon.

Bear in mind that the railroad iron is just a get-me-by until I can purchase a "real" anvil. Can I not bolt it down, say to a 5-gal bucket of concrete, to take some of the give out of it?

...if you need a hardie hole, weld some square tubing to the flat base so that it is level with the end of the track when standing on end.

Me and a buddy at work were just talking about that

So where can I get some 1" square tubing? Material for the hardy tools is not much of a problem (I'm resourceful hehe) but I'd like to keep the hole around the 1" standard in case I wanted to actually buy a hardy.

As with any anvil, first align it to north...

I "think" I understand what you're saying, pointing to "my" north---with its end closest to me, pointing outward. That it?

Use the anvil to it's full potential, using the sides, ends, top, bottom, inside and outside curves, and more. The anvil is after all a multipurpose tool. Enjoy yourself and your time at the forge while you look for a real anvil. There is one out there with your name on it.

Versatility, I can do

Please clarify on the points I made, and thanks for the advice, bro :)

[Glenn]

If you have a REAL anvil that has a face the size of an aircraft carrier, you can only move the metal that is under the hammer face. The face of the hammer is the limiting factor. My hammer face is 1-1/2 inches square or less. The end of the rail road track is about 2 inches dia or so, making the hammer face still the limiting factor. Look at the end of a chisel, the area is about the size of a nickel, and you can hit that with a hammer, so what is the problem with hitting a 2 plus inch diameter target?

1-1/2 inch square tubing with a 3/16 inch wall thickness will give you a 1 in opening plus a bit. Tubing with 1/4 inch wall thickness is exactly 1 inch, but that leaves no room for the 1 inch hardie post.

No reason not to use all sides and the bottom of the anvil to do what you need done. It is just another tool, use it to your advantage.

As to your north, align the rr track so that the portion the train wheel runs on points toward your belly. This way there is less chance of banging your knuckles on the other sections of track, skinning knuckles or breaking fingers. If you want to steady the piece of work, then align the rr track so that the portion the train wheel runs on points toward your hammer and 90* from your belly. You can now use your tong hand to lay the work onto the track web, steady the work, and align the work directly over the 2 inch dia section of the rail.

When setting up an anvil, align to NORTH, using a compass, North Star, or Southern Cross (for those that live down under). Now there is some discussion as whether to use true north or magnetic north, but until you need to split hairs, north will do. Then make the working face flat and level in all directions, and at an appropriate working height for you. Next turn the anvil every which way but loose, and turn it to all points of the compass. Use the anvil to it's full potential, using the sides, ends, top, bottom, inside and outside curves, step, and more.

The following article discribes making your first forge weld and specifically addresses the anvil, anvil alignment, hammer and timing of the weld.

S0002 Making Your First Forge Weld

[nashdude]

The following article discribes making your first forge weld and specifically addresses the anvil, anvil alignment, hammer and timing of the weld.

S0002 Making Your First Forge Weld

ROFLOL I can already see I'm going to like this place...:D

[BeaverDamForge]

The only issue I'm having is the ring it makes, a real loud high pitch ring that will destroy your hearing in no time. Be sure to wrap chains or something around it. Just my .2$. God bless!

Oh yeah, the ringing... won't miss that!

Can I not bolt it down, say to a 5-gal bucket of concrete, to take some of the give out of it?

Problem is, the 'give' is in the vertical flange of the rail. It's designed to give a little as the train wheels pass over it. I've heard of welding plate on both sides to stiffen it vertically. I had mine on a 18" x 5' piece of white oak set in the ground, pretty solid. But the surface still isn't as hard as a good anvil.

Using the end of the rail avoids the flex problem. I may set up a treadle hammer that way.

Good Luck!

[nashdude]

Thanks. I popped into chat and IMMEDIATELY got accosted by Glenn. He since explained quite a few things about RR anvils, so I think I got a clear picture of what I need to do with mine.

I think...

[Leland]

I kinda wonder if the flexing will be a problem for bladesmithing. Dunno. I built my first xxxx little shoeing anvil out of rail and found it serviceable until I'd saved enough for a second-hand Multi-Products, and I still have a dinky rail anvil I use for jewelery. Both were cut with a torch and ground, neither of them had holes nor were used for heavy forging of any kind.

A railroad anvil is not the best (the best haven't been made since Trenton ceased production, IMO), but the cost to benefit ratio is quite attractive. And they STILL beat any of the ASO's from Harbor Freight. Hm. Then again, that's not a tough standard to beat...you could say the same about any large, flattish rock.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Leland

[nashdude]

I actually WAS considering calling the local mortuary and see if they have any cast-off granite...:rolleyes:

[Larzz]

You align the anvil pointing north to allow the magnetic flux to assist in getting a good weld. The twenty mules can only go so far...:}

[evfreek]

A lot of people advise standing the salvaged railroad rail vertically and not horizontally. The horizontal alignment is much more "natural", and besides, when searching the web, most railroad rail anvils are horizontal. The unfortunate thing is, despite number of hits and ebay pictures, the vertical positioning is MUCH more effective. I don't know about the bladesmithing aspect, since some of the forging operations seem less challenging when it comes to power being applied off center. But, a lot of bladesmithing work is breaking down bigger pieces of tool steel into a knife sized flat. The weakness of a horizontal orientation were painfully obvious when drawing down a 5/8" piece of high carbon steel over the edge. The angled blows are exactly what makes the web flex. Oh yes, you need not bother asking. I also did not really believe the experts, and had to set one up horizontally. Then, I set one up vertically, and it made a huge improvement. I would say that the horizontal railroad track is a poor substitute for a real anvil. Although it appears to have a large face, this is only a benefit for punching, and this is quickly negated by the curve across the top of the rail. Even though it is large, it is precarious, and it is soon found that the flat bulb of the vertically oriented anvil, although smaller, is a safer and more stable platform. Especially if a chain hold down is used across the web. Also, those awful inefficient edge blows on the horizontal anvil are replaced with super efficient fullering blows over a radiused section of the vertical rail. I would say that once the small face problem is gotten over, it is equal to a real anvil. If the web and feet are radiused strategically, I would say it is slightly better. Yes, it is soft, and you can ding it with a Harbor Freight hammer, but I found out that the only time I dinged the face was when I hit it intentionally with no metal, hot or cold, on the face. The Brazeal Brothers have only mild steel for their Easy Smith, but it is not dinged much. I just saw an Easy Smith design on sale at a conference for $730. The only way you could get away with that price is if the anvil is superior to the London Pattern standard.

Trust me, even if google doesn't show you a picture, vertical is the way to go.

[triw]

Here is my two cents.. My first anvil was made of two sections of railroad rail. Each section was about 18" long, one section was crown up (where the wheels ran) so the hitting serface was rounded and the other section was crown down so the hitting serface was flat. The two were attached by welding a thick strip of metal along both sides. This was mounted on a section of railroad tie so you can guess how big and bulky this was
This made a great anvil and served me well but was very big and not easy to move so I did replace it with a smaller peter wright that I could take on the road to do demos with.

Edited December 31, 2008 by triw

[Glenn]

The hammer face is compared to the end of a rail road track. The track is about 3 times the size of the hammer face.

The second photo compares the hammer face to the end of the rail road track AND the end of a chisel. If you can hit the chisel with the hammer, then why is there a problem hitting the end of the rail road track and using it as an anvil?

Just a thought turned into a visual presentation.

[Frosty]

Another consideration for using the end of the rail. You can sharpen a portion of the web for a hardy and put a progressive radius on the flanges for fullers.

If you want a large face for straightening do it vertically against the flange.

Rail makes a fine anvil.

Frosty

[matt87]

Horned anvils were a specialist's tool until about 200 years ago; before that a general-purpose blacksmith's anvil was basically a large block of bloomery iron, hopefully with a steel face welded on. If you need extra features, make them -- a bickern is easy enough to forge and it can be stuck into a lump of wood, the hardy hole or your vice. If you need to punch something, make a bolster plate, a strip of iron with a number of different size holes in it. Alternatively, take a strip of iron and curl it into a circle shape and use that as your pritchel hole. The hole is used when knocking the biscuit out of the hole, the majority of the punching is done on the anvil face.

[triw]

The hammer face is compared to the end of a rail road track. The track is about 3 times the size of the hammer face.

The second photo compares the hammer face to the end of the rail road track AND the end of a chisel. If you can hit the chisel with the hammer, then why is there a problem hitting the end of the rail road track and using it as an anvil?

Just a thought turned into a visual presentation.

Very valid point Glenn,