That fireblock stuff is used in home construction and such to fill gaps where fire would be able to climb or otherwise spread to an adjacent space.  Not for forge fires, sorry.

You're not wrong to focus on the burner, but I do have to ask for one point of clarification.  It appears to me that you are using hard fireplace type bricks rather than the soft lightweight insulating fire bricks.  If that is the case you will experience a significantly longer heat up time for the forge, and you'll lose a lot more heat through the bricks themselves.

It sounds like your burners do need some attention, but to get a properly functioning forge all the components need to be right - or as close to right as you can get.

Fire Bricks are “Refractory Bricks” from ACE Hardware… It says pizza ovens on the box for not anything about forges.  Evidently the fireblock caulk doesn’t keep fire form climbing out of the forge at all...

I guess I need to tear it down and start from square one or just buy a readymade...

"Learning the hard way” should be my motto….

 

Alan

 

A lot of those types of bricks can withstand the heat, but they do not insulate well.  That means a fair amount of wasted heat and fuel.   We want the heat to go into our stock as much as possible, not the forge lining or out into open air.

What you want are insulating firebricks.  Look for something like Morgan K26 bricks.  They are significantly more expensive and fragile than the bricks you used, but they keep the heat where we want it far better.

Buzz is correct, those firebricks won't work well even after you throw that hack of a burner away and make one that works. 

It's not your fault you fell for a bogus burner. Those are out of range on virtually every detail as to be un salvageable. About the only thing salvageable are the 1/4 turn shut off valves IF they're rated for flammable gas, those are more expensive so probably not. I'd be very surprised if the made up hoses (red) are flammable gas rated, if they don't say so printed on them then they are not. The company just bought a role of compressed air hose and a bin of propane connection x hose barb brass fittings and hose clamps. A "high pressure" regulator doesn't mean a lot unless the range is stated. Propane burning appliances, say a camp stove, cabin lights, BBQs, etc. regulators have ranges measured in ounces  / sq", not lbs/sq" as required by a naturally aspirated forge burner. 

The apparently huge orifice diameter in what passes for a jet and it's position in the burner is what is making the big orange flame, maybe even at uselessly low psi.

The mixing tube is way too long, it should be closer to 6" long give or take less than 1/2".

The bell reducer "flare" on the end is useless but was made popular for some reason, maybe because nobody knew who to talk to to get "thread protectors" though couplers work fine. I blame it on the "if a little is good a LOT is better, mentality." A lot of it is the education system, almost nobody seems to know what "ratio" means. A 8 : 1 ratio means the length is 8 x the inside diameter. Everybody and their brother makes them 8" long regardless of the bore diameter.

Sorry it's hard for me not to launch into a rant when I think of what is sold with my name tacked on it. 

Do you have or have access to a drill press? That's about all you need except a couple hand tools to make a proper T burner and it'd be faster and easier than trying to salvage those two.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

I have access to almost any common shop tools and equipment,... except a working forge… I can probably get my hands on some large pipe (10-12”) and I’ve got 1/4” plate.  Does that Kaowool stuff work as good as the real forge bricks?

I like making stuff (hence wanting a forge) and I’m pretty sure I could make the burner (I have bits and taps of all sizes).  

Alan

 

Kaowool works great, so long as it's properly rigidized and covered with castable (hard) refractory. 

The shell of a gas forge only needs to be strong enough to stand up on its own and resist the occasional bump. 1/4" plate is WAAAAAAY overkill, and the large pipe probably is as well. My own gasser has a shell of 16 gauge sheet, which is quite sufficient. 

Hard firebricks have their place in the shop, especially as something to set hot stuff down on to cool.

(On a side note, my brother lived in Victoria for a number of years before moving up to Houston, and our dad lived out his last days in a nursing home down there.)

Perhaps I should clarify what I want this forge for.  I want to make some knives and the forge will be used predominantly for heat treating blades.  

Some Knives = Gifts for two sons, six grandkids, a few for myself and maybe some for close friends… I’m NOT going into the knife business.  This would be much like my other hobbies, small wood working items, gardening, fishing (which I don’t do near enough) and some occasional hunting.  

I have some old files, one set of vehicle leaf springs, and some sundry iron laying around.  I’d likely NEVER use it all up.  I do understand the positives of making something that will last, but this forge use will be minimal compared to some (most) of you guys.

So, with that in mind we can continue. 

 

Alan

 

JHCC, Victoria is growing way too fast for my tastes.  We live about half way between Victoria and Goliad.  Far enough out to be in the country and close enough to take my wife out to eat once in a while.  But not far enough out to hide from the tax office drones every time I drive a nail in something… I don’t go to Houston unless it’s for a funeral or no other way around it...

The pipe and plate is what I have on hand, plus it’s harder for me to burn a hole in it welding… 

I see the kaowool forges done with and without the refractory cement.  Any reasons why or why not?

Alan

 

Most of the burner build is readily had black plumbing.  Is there a source for the proper jet and fittings. Whatever I build will have one burner.  On Frosty’s tutorial I see that he has his valves set well away from the burners.  Is there a specific valve that I need to search for?  I will read back through and see if that question has already been answered.

I’ll say again that I do very much appreciate y’all’s help and patience. I know at times Newbie questions can become very tiring...

 

Alan

 

When  Kao wool is heated it releases fine particles of ceramic into the air. These are very, very bad on the lungs. Refractory encapsulates those fibers.  Never use KAO wool with out refractory. NEVER. 

And then, there’s this….

[commercial link removed]

 

 

Alan

Just a reminder: refractory cement comes in two different versions: (1) a mortar-like substance that can be cast or troweled into shape and (2) a high-temperature construction adhesive. (2) is almost entirely useless in the blacksmith shop, but it's what you'll find in most big-box hardware stores if you ask for "refractory cement". What we want is (1), which you'll probably have to order online, unless you happen to find a local supplier who will sell you a small amount.

A LOT of forges are sold without refractory these days, for the simple reason that it's cheaper and more profitable for the manufacturer. It's also irresponsible, hazardous, and largely unregulated. 

The commercial link I posted above was for a Chinese made forge from Home Depot.  If I’d checked the country of origin first I wouldn’t have posted it at all… 

Anyway, No, I don’t need to breath any fibers, or dust, or pollen, or smoke, …. Just air, clean air… We’ve got this “Saharan Dust” coming over us now and I’ve been trying to stay out of it for two days only going out for short period of time.

 

Alan

 

Alan, commercial links are verboten here. PERIOD. A company needs to purchase advertising space first.

The accepted way to do what you wanted to is. Tell us the product name and model, say "Accacio Anvils." Or making this up for funsies. YIPE OWE, HOT your Thing, forges.

We talk about brand names and where you can find them regularly, we just don't post a commercial link. Heck copy a pic off the page and edit out the advertising is good.

Frosty The Lucky.

I understand completely.  I moderate a gun forum and we have the same rule, sorta… A member in good standing may post a link to a product if that member has no affiliation with the product or vendor.  I will certainly follow the rules here.

Also, I will never attempt to post any product or vendor I have an affiliation with (this is an easy one), because I have no such affiliations.

Alan

 

7 hours ago, Alan McDaniel said:

 Is there a source for the proper jet and fittings. Whatever I build will have one burner.

Frosty's T burners use MIG welding tips. From memory it's a 0.023" MIG tip for a 3/4" mixing tube diameter burner, or a 0.031" MIG tip for a 1" mixing tube diameter burner, but you can check this in the Frosty T Burner thread and its PDF instructions. NB: this is the size of the MIG wire that will fit through the tip, not the actual size of the orifice. That one I can't remember off the top of my head!

Hefty, did you look at the illustrated directions I published before saying that? Putting a 0.023" mig tip in a 3/4" burner requires very high psi and make a too lean flame at high velocity. Basically a poor burner that oxidizes the stock you're heating.

Download the PDF Alan, all the dimension ratios are laid out clearly so you can adjust for throat diameter.

The concept behind an effective burner is to put as much well mixed, properly proportioned LOW velocity air fuel mix in the forge chamber per second as reasonably possible. A 0.023" mig tip jet is on the lean side for a 1/2" burner. It will work but makes a high velocity flame which is suboptimal.

Unfortunately 0.023 mig tips are available and 0,025" are not so to make a properly operating T burner you need to ream the mig tip to the proper ID with torch tip files. 

A 0.035" mig tip is what a 3/4" burner requires. How to tune the burner and all the details are in the PDF.

The reason you want the flame velocity as low as will burn stably is to prolong the flame's time INSIDE the forge chamber where it can transfer the heat energy to the forge liner where it can be reradiated as IR to heat your work. High velocity flames tend to blow through the forge and out the opening more quickly transferring the heat energy to the air around where you have the forge. 

Frosty The Lucky.

Hi Frosty, no I literally said "from memory...but you can check this in the Frosty T burner thread".

I'm happy to be corrected and no harm intended. The main intent of my post was to answer Alan's question about what to use for gas jets/orifices, which was at risk of being missed as the thread progressed.

Cheers,

Jono.

Sorry, I over reacted there. I know you didn't intend to post incorrect information I tend to just react before thinking. 

I sincerely wish I'd patented the T burner so I could at least threaten idiots making "burners" and calling them Frosty Ts. Worse, by coincidence the most common badness of all these burners is to mount a 0.023" mig tip in the mixing tube instead of about midway of the intake ports.

I put the design in the public domain on purpose so anybody with some basic tools and shop skills could build an effective burner. I just wish folks didn't tag my name to it, especially when they can't follow simple directions. The burners Alan bought are perfect examples of what I'd really rather not have my name associated with.

It's all good.

Frosty The Lucky.

I downloaded the PDF early in the conversation.  Thanks.  I’ll have grandkids all this week and next so my shop time is limited.

 

Alan

 

No harm, no foul Frosty. I SHOULD have just said "Use MIG tips. The sizes needed are in the PDF", instead of trusting memory offhand.

I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to see people make a buck off your work and not even have the decency to do it well, especially when you wanted it to be accessible by anyone with enough skill to read a drawing and use some basic tools.

I tried to add this to my post but it timed out:

I groaned out loud when I saw the photo of the internals of the burners Alan bought. Even from a selfish, money-making perspective, the manufacturers could have saved money on welding processes and made a more serviceable product with just a little learning about how these burners work.

Lol, NOW it merged!

Yeah, don't sweat it Hefty my desire is working. you can see T burners everywhere all over the world. I'd just like to see some basic skill applied without my name on them. I made the bed I can live with it. The jet in Alan's burners are off the shelf propane jets but you'd need a mixing tube maybe 2" ID to make a neutral flame.

Alan, there's no rush, watch and play with the Grandkids, they need a good spoiling to take back to their parents. 

Think about how you want to build the things and ask me what you want, I'll be around. Unless we get a break and can do a little RVing. I'd REALLY like to visit a web comic author and machinist a ways south of here but salmon season isn't long off and neither Deb nor I want to spend a couple days fighting traffic almost to Homer. Sure it's only a couple hundred miles but on narrow winding mountain roads that run next to the big salmon rivers in this area, packed cheek to jowl with touroids and folk dead set on catching salmon. 

It's like going to Disneyland and standing in line to buy your ticket at the gate. That was a crazy long wait last time I went to Disney land in 1971 and we even had season passes so we could go to the gate instead of the ticket booths. I gotta stop, the voices are whispering about getting to Disneyland at least 2 hours before they opened to get in by early afternoon. 

Anyway, let me know if you have any questions, there are a couple tricks I don't think are in the instructions.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

Frosty, i have a question. Why did you not call it the "Fros-T burner"? That is a product name just waiting to be used. 

 

I wasn't selling it, it wasn't a product, the principle and design are ancient. I chose this inducer because it was easy to make with minimal tools and shop experience. 

Frosty The Lucky.