Anvil ID and How'd I do?

[mb44kar]

Hello, glad to be on this knowledgeable forum.

I'm more of a novice machinist with some minor heat treating experience (in plain carbon steels). I've made a 1095 stock-removal knife and plan on another soon using some 1.3% plain carbon steel, but I also found some 6150 steel for cheap and have been attempting to forge it for a few days now. I have been using my heat treat oven as a forge, and a 75 lbs block of stainless steel stock as an anvil. I was getting tired of the bounce from that, and how much it would move side to side. Having planned to pick up forging at some point, I decided I may as well see if any anvils are in my area.

I was out looking today and found a ~250 lb anvil for $3/pound, which I've heard is good. I picked it up after I tested the sound with a hammer and it rang decently. I can't find any maker's marks on it, can you tell who might have made it? I also picked it up thinking I might be able to weld the face where edge bits are missing, or maybe mill it down. I should have realized then, but welding is a no-go because it would temper the surrounding area. Are these missing edges a deal-breaker and was I a dang fool? It's going to be better than my block of stainless steel for sure, but I got too excited at the price.

[mb44kar]

Here are some more shots after I got it into my trunk. ...Disregard the mess of a target stand in there.

This is in central Ohio, for reference.

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard MB, glad to have you. If you put your general location in the header you'll have a much better chance of meeting up with other members living within visiting distance.

I can't ID it as for maker but she looks to be in pretty decent condition for her age. NO grinding on the face! It removes useful life along with the high carbon steel ground off! Welding up the edges is always iffy and stands a better than even chance of doing more harm that good. The HAZ would mean rehardening and tempering the anvil's face which is really risky.

The broken edges are not a deal breaker it has plenty of good edge left. However, you maybe should radius the broken edges to prevent them from breaking further. The resulting rounded edges will serve well as bottom fullers to make drawing steal down faster and easier.

Wire brushing with an angle grinder to remove surface rust is okay, it doesn't remove sound steel, just rust and can be done on the face if you don't get too carried away. Once the rust has been cleaned from the face dropping a bearing ball, 1/2" is MORE THAN LARGE ENOUGH and estimating how far it bounces back as a %. Dropping from the 10" mark on a ruler and noting the rebound height is the easy, more accurate way. 

Tapping with a hammer and listening to the sound takes more experience to determine face hardness. However it is THE way to determine if the face is has problems like a delaminated face, soft spot, usually the result of abuse with a torch. If it has a dead spot tapping lets you map it precisely and it's just a whole lot easier tapping it a bunch with a light hammer than chasing bearing balls all over the shop. 

Using a bearing ball almost always results in the ball taking a wild bounce and rolling under something heavy. Cleaning the rust off the face gives more accurate rebound tests.

Hammering hot steel on her will shine her up and repair any small blemishes like chisel dings and such. And once you have her body brushed clean a coat of boiled linseed oil or my preference carnuba paste wax applied warm will prevent further rusting.

I'd put her to work if there wasn't a serious issue with the face plate.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Welcome from the Ozark Mountains.

I can't add anything else to what Frosty said and he saved me a lot of typing Thanks Frosty) good review. We won't remember your location once leaving this post, hence the suggestion to add it in your profile. If you find need for a sharp edge, you could always fall back on the block of stainless steel, just mount it a little more solid to keep it still. A coating of latex calking compound will help with that and help deaden the ring.

I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sail’s.
Semper Paratus

 

PS: We have some members in and around Ohio, who knows maybe some close enough to visit and lend a hand.

[mb44kar]

3 hours ago, Frosty said:

Welcome aboard MB, glad to have you. If you put your general location in the header you'll have a much better chance of meeting up with other members living within visiting distance.

 

Hey Frosty thanks for the words of wisdom. I didn't even plan on wire brushing the face, at least not with my powerful 9" angle grinder. Maybe I'd trust a drill wire brush attachment with that task, something that wouldn't have near enough power to do any harm. I've also got a 1" ball bearing on the way but I won't drop that from any serious height on it. Unfortunately I have to wait for a coming move before I get this situated on a stump or wood block and get to really using it. But it does free up that stainless stock for mill work if I want.

I did the tap test as I said, up and down the face and on the horn and tail. To my untrained ear, there were no dead spots but you're right I could be missing subtleties. I'll do a pseudo drop test with that 1" ball bearing while it's still in my trunk (it'll probably sit at a self storage, with a coat of oil, between now and my move) and see.

2 hours ago, Irondragon Forge ClayWorks said:

Welcome from the Ozark Mountains.

PS: We have some members in and around Ohio, who knows maybe some close enough to visit and lend a hand.

True, thanks. I added my location but it for some reason has no space between the town name and "Location".

Isn't there another strategy for getting sharper edges where you make (forge? mill?) a block with a knob that fits in one of the face holes? Hardy hole, that's the term.

 

And a last question, the numbers near the waist, to me it looks like "L  3  70" or  "L  3  72" Are those meant to be the weight or year of manufacture? Thanks again guys.

Edited February 5 by Mod30
Trim quote's.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

That is probably the weight in English Hundredweight system, but the L is probably a 1 which=112 pounds the 3=28x3 (can't be over 3 and the 70 is actual pounds making the weight at time of mfg. 266 us pounds. (112+84+70)

I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sail’s.
Semper Paratus

 

[BillyBones]

IDF&C, i did not think that the 3rd number could go over 28. My anvil is 153# marked 1-1-13. If it were another 15# (making the 13 into a 28) wouldnt the number be 1-2-0? For example. 

[JHCC]

I'd put my money on the "72" actually being a "12" with a rather strong upstroke on the "1". In the hundredweight system, that would make your anvil (1 x 112 lbs.) + (3 x 28 lbs.) + (12 x 1 lb.) = 112 + 84 + 12 = 208 lbs.

21 hours ago, Irondragon Forge ClayWorks said:

We have some members in and around Ohio, who knows maybe some close enough to visit and lend a hand.

In Columbus, I strongly recommend connecting with Adlai Stein at the Central Ohio School of Metalwork, as well as Southern Ohio Forge and Anvil (SOFA), the local branch of the Artist Blacksmith Association of North America. In addition to their regular meetings and classes, SOFA also hosts the annual Quad-State Blacksmiths Roundup in Troy, which draws folks from all over the world.

[Frosty]

No harm wire brushing the face with a 9" right angle grinder. Who would use a tiny little one when they have a real brush? Just don't bear down on it for an extended time, once the rust is cleaned off . . . STOP!

NO 1" BEARINGS! That whole chunk of nonsense developed from folks who didn't know what they're doing "thinking" bigger is better. Drop a 1" bearing from 10" on the horn will put a dent in it, IF you can hit it squarely enough to get a vertical bounce. Most likely it'll shoot off into the shop, woods, water cooler bottle, etc. Somewhere worse than good. When I was hitting yard, garage, etc. sales I carried a couple 3/8" bearing balls in my pocket in case I spotted an anvil. They do exactly the same job without even a possibility of damaging an anvil that the owner WILL EXPECT YOU TO BUY because you damaged it. Yes? Also small bearings won't bruise your leg like silly too large ones will.

You do NOT want sharp edges on an anvil, they do damage if you're setting down a shoulder or accidently strike a blow over it. Sharp edges on an anvil is a B A D strategy! Buy or make a hardy if you want to cut stock. If you REALLY want a sharp inside corner use files. 

Sure the chipped edges would make pretty large fullering edges but those are good things, it's easier than having to reverse directions repeatedly using the horn for a bottom fuller. The horn is tapered so WILL make a tapered indentation so if you want a straight piece you have to use the horn from both directions.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Nobody Special]

Agree with all the above. May want to radius the breaks and test the face, but no milling. Yours is in better shape than my favorite by far. Non-knotted wire brush for the cleanup, followed by maybe paste wax or boiled linseed oil on the sides. Linseed takes a couple of days to dry and don't leave application rags exposed - they tend to spontaneously combust. Before you oil it, you might want to rub a little baby powder or something on the sides with the anvil tilted slightly - it will bring any markings that are hidden by shallowness and the patina on the anvil into sharp relief and make them much easier to read.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

10 hours ago, BillyBones said:

i did not think that the 3rd number could go over 28.

You are absolutely correct. This from Anvilfire but we are not allowed to post a hot link, per their request. Thanks for the correction.

"English Hundreds Weight (hundredweight) System:

Typically the hundreds weight markings are seperated by dots but not always. These figures were stamped into the finished anvil and are often not very deep. The first figure to the left is hundred weights which equal 112 pounds. The next figure is quarter hundred weights which equal 28 pounds and the last number is whole pounds. The three are added together for the total weight. Examples:
 

1 · 0 · 16 = 112 + 0 + 16 = 128 pounds

2 · 1 · 3 = (112 x 2) + 28 + 3 = 255 pounds

2 · 2 · 25 = (112 x 2) + (28 x 2) + 25 = 305#

The second place is never over 3 so if you have difficulty reading the number it is a 1, 2 or 3. The last place is never over 28 and most often is a single digit or less than 20. "

I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sail’s.
Semper Paratus

 

[mb44kar]

4 hours ago, Frosty said:

No harm wire brushing the face with a 9" right angle grinder. Who would use a tiny little one when they have a real brush? Just don't bear down on it for an extended time, once the rust is cleaned off . . . STOP!

Understood, I'll get a 3/8" ball bearing for any testing. Based on what you've said my plan is to wire brush it off all over and then lightly blend in the chipped edges with a flapdisk. It will take me some time to shed the machinist's precision when considering the anvil face, I have a dial indicator that reads 0.00005" so I can worry over surface finishes on the lathe.

3 hours ago, Nobody Special said:

Non-knotted wire brush for the cleanup, followed by maybe paste wax or boiled linseed oil on the sides.

Before you oil it, you might want to rub a little baby powder or something on the sides with the anvil tilted slightly - it will bring any markings that are hidden by shallowness and the patina on the anvil into sharp relief and make them much easier to read.

Non-knotted wirebrush, noted. Just seeing the "mouseholes" around the base makes me think it's forged, and the "step" in the feet of the base make me think Peter Wright (from my weekend of Googling..). But I think I saw a picture of a Trenton with that same step at some point...I'll probably go for the wax and also try the powder trick, thanks.

9 hours ago, JHCC said:

I'd put my money on the "72" actually being a "12" with a rather strong upstroke on the "1". In the hundredweight system, that would make your anvil (1 x 112 lbs.) + (3 x 28 lbs.) + (12 x 1 lb.) = 112 + 84 + 12 = 208 lbs.

Thanks for the corrections, guys. The seller said they had it on a scale that read 250 lbs, either their scale is off or that seller is a piece of work. Either way, I paid closer to $4/lb. Oh well! Still seems like a great starter so I won't mind the price. This at least explains why I could deadlift the anvil without having been to the gym for a long while.

9 hours ago, JHCC said:

In Columbus, I strongly recommend connecting with Adlai Stein at the Central Ohio School of Metalwork, as well as Southern Ohio Forge and Anvil (SOFA), the local branch of the Artist Blacksmith Association of North America. In addition to their regular meetings and classes, SOFA also hosts the annual Quad-State Blacksmiths Roundup in Troy, which draws folks from all over the world.

COSM is pretty close by, I'll give it a look! Thanks for pointing these out.

[Frosty]

HAH, Dad gave me most of his instrumentation when I mentioned having a lathe. I don't think he actually used anything that only read to 0.00005". He gave me his entire roll away, the top box is nothing but aerospace level instrumentation + two more totes. The bottom is about 300lbs of cutters and blanks. He worked to a ten thou or less for the last 20 years as a machinist. He was primarily a metal spinner till the abuse his ribs took, they were all fused into a "plate" on his left side, made him stop spinning. He'd been retired when I mentioned buying a 13x40 Jet and he sent me home with it all. The dial on his it's really hard to think of it as my, height gage reads to a ten thou.

What he did daily was so far out of my ball park I can't describe, I rarely ever held closer than a couple thou. I used it to make blacksmith level tooling, nothing destined for the moon or interstellar space. Dad has parts that have left the solar system and parts on the moon. And no, CNC hadn't been invented in his day.

Those are tong holes used at the factory to grind it to finish. There were usually at least two men on those big honkin tongs. The one in the base was often the pusher to put pressure on the wheels. There are videos and pics, maybe someone has a link, I'm not so good at searching since the TBI.

$4 is a goo price though maybe not in the mid west seeing as FIF seems to be done for. In AK it'd be gone before the ink dried on the ad. $7-8/lb. isn't unusual.

It's past bed time, Ronnie the youngster dachshund is getting adamant. Better shut down and go to bed now. Night all.

Frosty The Lucky.

[BillyBones]

2 hours ago, mb44kar said:

either their scale is off or that seller is a piece of work.

He may have just used the bathroom scale i have seen a few people do that and they are not the most accurate. 

From what i have seen of anvils in this area you got a pretty good deal on it. 

34 minutes ago, Frosty said:

FIF seems to be done for.

What? Well, figured its run was about over. It got boring. Everything seemed to be canister Damascus. I started watching the show when it came on and one of the things i liked was "here is a 1972 Ford, make a knife out of it" and they would find a spring or axle or something and forge it into a knife. As a machinist it drove me nuts watching them drill holes though. 

[Frosty]

That was something else I wanted to comment on. The seller might not have known how to read the weight or used a crummy scale. I try not to attribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance.

When FIF started it was a decent watch, I don't make blades but know the dance. Unfortunately there wasn't enough "drama" to suit the producers or sponsors so they had to "improve it." The real deal breaker was the show's inability to get decent contestants, I must've gotten an offer at least once a month to be one. Even Deb noticed that of all the "contestants" there were only two that had much chance. We'd pick 1st and 2nd place during the intro and were right most of the time. There were basically only two real contestants.

Watching people with poor shop skills lean on drill bits turning too fast because they weren't cutting hardened steel got to you too eh? Of course the guys who banged the bit in the holes made me grit my teeth too. It's not like you have to clear the cuttings if you've blunted the bit and it isn't cutting. 

I've rarely seen a show about smithing that wasn't loaded with urban myth. There was one really short lived show where the guy forging a knife had both hi anvil and quench trough aligned "TRUE" north. Not magnetic but true north, he made a point of that technical secret. 

Sorry, I shouldn't have mentioned FIF, even now it gets me going thinking about.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[BillyBones]

Wait, i thought the true north thing only worked when for breakfast you had the egg of a condor that was collected on a night of the full moon during a thunder storm by a red haired 9 year old boy fried in the fat of a bore hog that was slain by the eldest granddaughter during a solar eclipse. 

I also noticed that the quality of the contestants has kind of dropped. Although most of them do pull off the canister thing which is something that i can not do.  

It has seemed that the show has become more about the end product than the process in making the end product. 

 

[Scott NC]

  You left out shaking a bag of dried chicken gizzards.  Tip:  Frying anybody in the fat of a bore hog is frowned upon these days.  I think I watched 2 episodes but I'm not a bladesmith, but I know more than the average "man on the street" from my reading on here.  

[BillyBones]

That must be were i made my mistake, i used the dried gizzards as flux. 

[Frosty]

I'm pretty sure FIF was finishing the blades off the air by professionals. Maybe the ringer bladesmiths were actually finishing their own blades but no telling about TV "reality" shows.

Canister welds of clean steels in a strong hydraulic press with the right dies goes pretty easily. 

And NO I am NOT telling any driller stories about bore hogs!

Frosty The Lucky.

[George N. M.]

I was always pretty sure that there was a lot of hilt work done off camera at the home shop and that there was more work than could have been done in the alloted time.  It also irritated me that they tempered the blades off camera.  That seemed to me to be "cheating"  because tempering is such an important part of the blade making process that doing it that way did not test that skill of the contestants.  Also, it would have been, IMO, visually interesting for the viewers and added to the interest of the show.

I thought the "Forging Down Under" which was mentioned here a few months ago to be a better presentation.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand." 

[Frosty]

For a brief period they showed the tempering oven on the show explaining the use for the program. Then they stopped showing heat treat for anything but the quench and I have my doubts they were quenching the blanks forged on the show. 

I'm pretty sure they were getting called publicly for faking it by real bladesmiths so shortly they went out of production.

I don't "know" any of this but I've been watching TV since before I can remember and after a while TV production values and tricks get pretty easy to spot.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Nobody Special]

If nothing else, there's no way that they were finishing the blade without tempering, so you know that they didn't jump straight from the quench to the handles the way that it appears to.

[mb44kar]

On 2/6/2024 at 2:58 AM, Frosty said:

What he did daily was so far out of my ball park I can't describe, I rarely ever held closer than a couple thou. I used it to make blacksmith level tooling, nothing destined for the moon or interstellar space. Dad has parts that have left the solar system and parts on the moon. And no, CNC hadn't been invented in his day.

$4 is a goo price though maybe not in the mid west seeing as FIF seems to be done for. In AK it'd be gone before the ink dried on the ad. $7-8/lb. isn't unusual.

Gotta respect that, lathe is the most fun machine tool for me. Glad to hear it was money well spent on my part.

On 2/6/2024 at 3:38 AM, BillyBones said:

He may have just used the bathroom scale i have seen a few people do that and they are not the most accurate. 

From what i have seen of anvils in this area you got a pretty good deal on it.

Makes sense, thanks.

On 2/6/2024 at 11:23 AM, Frosty said:

That was something else I wanted to comment on. The seller might not have known how to read the weight or used a crummy scale. I try not to attribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance.

Too right, I don't hold any bad feelings about the experience. Still just surprised how small these suckers are for their weight. I'm used to moving 1-2 ton machine tools so this was a walk in the park.

 

With all the FIF bashing, I wish I had actually watched it, might have gotten into this earlier! And with way weirder expectations...I heard of it but just never got the chance to get into the series. I got interested after making a knife for my dad (and starting one I'm currently working on for my mother) the abrasive way and seeing lots of forged examples. Also, learning about how the Garand receiver was forged 8620. It seems like a good way to supplement my machining capabilities, forging parts to a point where they can be finish-machined, maximizing strength from grain alignment but also getting precise results.

[BillyBones]

I run a Davenport 5 spindle screw machine for a living. It is basically a lathe with a revolving head that cuts in 5 tool positions. No computer controls, the only electronics are  the buttons to start the motor. Everything is controlled by cams, gears, and dead stops. Timing, speeds and feeds, etc. are still figured the old fashioned way. Tools have to have grind angles figured out, where to center the tool using depth mics, scales, and squares, manual adjustments, etc. Then run 10,000 parts a shift holding a +/- .0005 " tolerance. Some parts we make have to be tapped, i tap right handed holes with a tap that only turns to the left. Anyway i like doing it and figuring all that out. Much better than just pushing a few buttons and a computer doing it. I also get paid much better than a CNC operator. 

When FIF first came on i was a huge fan. Yes it was a "reality" show but they have had some very talented bladesmiths on there as well. The hosts always seemed to try and make the show fun also. And depending on how you look at it, pro or con, it got a lot more people into making knifes and blacksmithing in general. You can watch them on demand or stream just about all the episodes. I would suggest the early seasons. It seemed that right before covid is when started loosing interest, however, during covid they did some episode of the hosts taking on a challenge and making blades. I thought those were pretty cool kind of putting their money where their mouth is so to say.  

[Frosty]

You can watch FIF start to finish online. I agree Billy the last few episodes with the judges showing their stuff were pretty good. The last hurrah for the series. 

It's sort of like "Iron Chef America" I really enjoyed the reality show, I like to cook and I picked up some cool stuff but they were starting to run out of challenges. Then for some stupid reason they did a 2 hour special showing how the show was made, "behind the scenes". Instead of having an hour to select, prep and make their dishes they had a couple DAYS to prepare themselves and experiment at home (or where ever.) They knew exactly what ingredients they had available, got to specify them in fact and quite a bit of prep work was done in advance. A 1 hour Iron Chef episode actually took more than a day to produce.

You COULD say the ratings tanked, IIRC their market share dropped to unreadable in one week and the show was gone in under a month. 

There are a number of good cooking shows on but the ones who treat the audience like idiots go away fast. I REALLY miss "Good Eats" with Alton Brown but he burned out and called it quits while the show was still on top. 

Sorry, getting off on a morning ramble. 

I guess my point is, TV producers and marketing hacks killed FIF. Unfortunately the audience never seemed to understand the show was never a blacksmithing educational show it was a game show. But as such it was pretty enjoyable till the hacks poisoned it to death.

Of course that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Frosty The Lucky.