The Mystery of the Damascus Sword

[Glenn]

The Mystery of the Damascus Sword ----> Click here
(this article has been taken off the internet at the source)

[nc_cooter]

Thanks Glenn. Very interesting article.

[matt87]

A very interesting article. I would like to read more in-depth material. (Mind you, he made one slight mistake; Damascus swords were probably sold in Damascus, not made there )

[coltpax]

cool. never knew that much.

[MRobb]

You learn something new every day! Thanks Glenn. Very interesting.

[kovacija(blacksmith)]

wow:o
didn

Edited October 12, 2008 by kovacija(blacksmith)

[drone]

I read the nanotube article but wasnt able to access the mystery of damascus. I am very interested in forging damascus. I have made a few knives in my day but I want to make damascus blades and am learning what I can.

[John Martin]

Interesting article, really liked it.

[LDW]

Appears to me the secret was vanadium. That was a good article, thanks Glenn.

[matt87]

I read the nanotube article but wasnt able to access the mystery of damascus. I am very interested in forging damascus. I have made a few knives in my day but I want to make damascus blades and am learning what I can.

Don't forget, what is often called damascus steel today, is not how the 'swords of Damascus' were made. In the past, trying to recreate Damascus blades, smiths tried forge-welding different types of steel in a method we would today call pattern welding. This emulated the look of Damascus blades, and so it was thought for a while that the mystery of Damascus steel had been sold. When the structure of the steels were examined though, it was found that Damascus steels were very different.

Long story short it was found that Wootz steel, a form of crucible steel probably developed in southern India, was probably the raw material for the Damascus blades. The question remained about where the patterns came from. The leading theory for a while was that the carbon somehow developed in various patterns across the blade. This article propounds the theory that there were small amounts of vanadium in the ores used, which caused the patterns. There is though literary evidence, as well as some corroborating evidence, that the steel came from a very different smelting method from Sri Lanka, until the 11th century AD or so.

If you want to make Wootz steel, expect a steep learning curve. There is though some community for it online.

(Of course, the so-called 'swords of Damascus' were so-named by the Mediaeval European Crusaders, as this is where they were encountered. There is though no evidence that these swords were made near Damascus; they were simply sold there.)

[ThomasPowers]

Matt you seem to be referring to the old story that Europeans saw the Wootz swords used by the middle eastern cultures in the Crusades and came back to Europe and came up with pattern welding as an attempt to replicate them.

Sounds great except for the fact that the first hayday for pattern welded swords started several centuries before the first crusade. Pattern welding is a direct outcome of the bloomery method of making wrought iron and so pretty much every culture that has used the bloomery method of making wrought iron has come up with pattern welding too.

As far as the dates go; pattern welding occcurs prior to wootz and so you would have to say they came up with wootz trying to replicate pattern welding---except the areas where wootz was produced already knew about pattern welding. They are two different technologies and do not seemed to be linked---except in the Central Asian blades composed of alternating pattern welded and wootz chevrons...

May I commend to your attention "Crucible Steel in Central Asia" Fuerbach, thesis; "Metallograpy of Eary Ferrous Edge Tools and Edged Weapons, Tylecote and Gilmour, BAR 155; "The Celtic Sword, Pleiner as some works discussing aspects of this question.

Edited October 13, 2008 by ThomasPowers

[Iron Bear]

Some more interesting reading material include:http://Continuing Study of Damascus Steel Bars from the Alwar Armory, The _ JOM _ Find Articles at BNET.htm,http://verhoeven-9809original paper.htm. There a couple other pdf docs I have that I couldn't link, but they refer to the research done by the same people, Dr. John Verhoeven and Alfred Pendray. The research is fascinating, and I wouldn't mind giving it a try in a year or two after I've nailed down the basics. It seems that starting out with sorel iron or another iron type with the necessary vanadium impurity is key to the whole process, but chromium or molebdenum impurities also contributed to the formation of the bands, but to a lesser extent. Since vanadium-rich iron is hard to get a hold of, one could possibly try chromium-rich iron, since it's probably more readily available. idk. The whole idea is provoking, mysterious, fascinating, and tempting. For other sources look up Dr. Verhoeven's papers additional papers on the subject. He's written several more since the original discovery back in the 90's.

[Iron Bear]

srry, those links I didn't quite link are as follows:The Key Role of Impurities in Ancient Damascus Steel Blades
Continuing Study of Damascus Steel: Bars from the Alwar Armory, The | JOM | Find Articles at BNET
sorry about that lol

[ThomasPowers]

Lots of good research on wootz these days much of it superceding earlier research as methods are better---looks like a lot of what make woots wootz is due to micro alloying that in earluer days would have been lost under "tramp elements" in assays.

Edited November 16, 2009 by ThomasPowers

[Dave Leppo]

"

looks like a lot of what make woots wootz is due to micro alloying"

looks to me like what makes woots wootz is a letter reversal;)

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

I've read "On The Bulat" a technical paper on wootz steel.:

ScienceDirect - Progress in Materials Science : On the Bulat—Damascus steels revisited

Most of that focuses on the fact that it was ultra-high carbon steel and was never worked above a red heat preserving the original grain structure.

Not so much "impurities" as carbide forming elements. Carbides form readily in ultra-high carbon steels and not at all in steels with less than about .80 carbon. "Micro-alloying" only in the sense that they encourage carbide formation.

Edited November 17, 2009 by nakedanvil

[pkrankow]

Replication of Wootz
something else to read, its been posted before but since we are collecting articles here you go.
Phil

[Iron Bear]

Vanadium as an impurity present in the iron used IS a carbide forming element. If you look up what vanadium is mainly used for today, it is as an additive to steels in the formation of specialty steel alloys such as high speed tool steel. Vanadium adds stable nitrides and carbides when it is added to steel as ferrovanadium. Regarding all this, though, wasn't the bulat steel similar but not the same as the wootz steel? I remember something about the bulat being developed in Russia by a guy, but wootz was originally from India wasn't it? The point is moot, I guess, seeing how close the similarity is and seeing how far away I am from making either one! Good luck to all studying and/or attempting this aspect of blacksmithing! I hope to learn more and eventually attempt it myself.

[pkrankow]

Bulat was developed by a Russian guy trying to create a better steel for cannon manufacture. He was inspired by wootz steel in a sword that was in a public displayed collection.
Phil

[ThomasPowers]

I'd use the term "central asia" rather than India as folks get mislead with the countries nowdays that weren't around back pre 1000 CE

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

"Bulat" is just the Russian name for wootz and the word is Persian in origin. They did develop a similar method in the 1800's for superior steel much as Huntsman did.

[Iron Bear]

gotcha, ty for making the explanation.

[Tim McCoy]

I know that this is an older thread ... came across and interesting article that seems to shed some light on myth versus historical evidence ... hope that this helps. It's 90 pages long so get a cuppa and settle in:



http://met.iisc.ernet.in/~rangu/text.pdf


I don't think that this is in the original posts here

Tim

[matthew stagmer]

Good reads. All of them. Thanks for sharing.