Sam Falzone Posted September 29, 2008 Author Share Posted September 29, 2008 This is the exact thing that we run across in our Norse re-enactment - the extreme lack of information about these kinds of questions. Ground fires and low anvils may have been fine for temporary smithing situations (while on raids, or at temp. outposts), but we don't know what the smith's forge / anvil set up was like in the permanent settlements and towns. So we explored the idea of kneeling or squatting at the anvil, but this is physiacally taxing (I know we're alot "softer" than the Norse of that period, but still ... kneeling on the ground while trying to make a sword? -that's going to be murder on anyone's back and legs). So we tried a ground fire with a proper working-height anvil, and all that up and down was also not efficient for alot of iron production work (imaging doing that while cranking out hundreds of ship rivets ) So we've hypothesized that perhaps one of 2 things may have happened ... 1. -they built the forge fire heigher -this is where I extrapolated my forge from the firebox image (see beginning of this thread) ... or ... 2. -they brought the smith down closer to the fire by digging a pit next to the fire and anvil for the smith to stand in. By digging down, you bring the fire and anvil "up" from the blacksmith's perspective. The archaeological evidence this would have left would have been things like a firepit, scale, metal fragments and possible soil discolouration (perhaps caused from the pit being filled in with silt and debris over the centuries). Very much like what I've been reading about so far. We tried the pit idea with a related activity - an experimental bead-furnace one of my friends made and tested this summer. We noticed a 100% difference from shifting from kneeling to sitting on the edge of the pit. By sitting people were able to work much longer and not tire as quickly as when they were kneeling. It didn't take a very deep pit to bring everything "up" to a more comfortable working height (if you can visualixe what I'm saying Another peeve I have about this is that the research is incomplete. There is a ton of archaeological data and analysis that is still waiting to be studied and processed back in Norway, Iceland and the rest of the Scandinavian countries - and probably just as much that HAS been published ... BUT NOT IN ENGLISH!!!! So the answers I want may be sitting in some museum's back room and I won't know about it for years yet - if ever. Oh well ... the hypothesies, the experiments and the education continue ... at least it's fun Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gobae Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 Excellent post! We were coming to much the same conclusions as you and it's good to know others have independently gotten to the same place too. Smithing in a pit is a well known work stance in some areas of Asia, Middle East and Africa. While I certainly would be loath to use cultures so distant as "evidence" for the Celts (or Norse), it does point to the fact that it is effective. Do you have any pics of the pit work you've done? I couldn't agree more on the "unpublished research" topic! Of course we have things a little easier when it comes to published work on the Insular Celts; that's mostly in English. But Continental Celtic research articles are as likely to be in French or German as English. In the end we will probably build 2 forges. One box forge at "traditional" working height for public demonstrations where digging pits is frowned upon. The other forge will be an on-the-ground/stand-in-the-pit style at our roundhouse site. Much of the equipment can be reused and transferred back and forth as needed so it shouldn't be too bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 There was a smithy excavated in Lebedka (russia) 8th - 10th century where a pit was dug for the smith to stand/sit in 1.5 x 1.5 mtrs. the hearth was compact red clay - stone lined 70cm dia with the rear of the hearth forming a small wall 50 cm high. Source - iron in archaeology, early european blacksmiths by Radomir Pleiner. isbn -808612462-2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Falzone Posted September 30, 2008 Author Share Posted September 30, 2008 OOHH!!! New source I haven't read yet. And those areas of Russia in the 8th to 10th centuries were within the Norse influence. THANkS !!! Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerkid Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Here is my setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dwyer Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 This has been a fascinating thread, even though I'm not into reenactment. Never-the-less, I am very interested in seeing portable setups that could be used for contemporary community holiday festivals and arts and crafts fairs. Thanks for posting your portable setup too Chris. -Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerkid Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 My demo Saturday I`ll get pics of the whole setup. I `am going to take a black & white pic of me smithing . Thanks Phil Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Here are some pictures of a small portable forge used for demos at shows, 16" square and 3 and 1/2" high with cut outs at either side, fitted with removable plates. Being relatively small means you don't need to carry large amounts of fuel, materials up to 1" square can be forge welded in it. (Haven't tried larger.) The legs are adjustable and lockable to allow for levelling on uneven ground, the side rails are used for fitting work support bars, lifting into vehicle and tool racks. The forge tools fit into the hearth for storage, and can be hung from the side racks when being used. The slide valve has a 1/4" hole drilled through to allow a minimal amount of air through when forge is shut down to prevent the coke going out. The ratchet mechanism for the slide valves ensures a constant set air flow, and does not allow the slide to vibrate or be easily moved if unintentionally caught. The angled sides allow any clinker to be easily removed, shut off the air blast to idle, wait a few minutes, then just slide a slice down the side and lift any clinker out in one lump, reset slide valve and off you go. Material used was 1/4"(6mm) plate for hearth base and sides, slide valve, and 1/2" (12mm) plate for fire pot. Leg sockets 2" (50mm) tube, legs 1 and 1/4" (30mm)hollow square section. A piece of 4" (100mm) square hollow section and 2" (50mm) tube was used for fire pot air chamber and air inlet from blower, the ash dump plate was pivoted and secured with a wing nut to prevent unintentional dumping. The forge pictured working is an earlier prototype, the fan is connected with a quick change adaptor, reducing the need for a hose connection the slide valve is operated by a lever next to the lady forging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Falzone Posted October 1, 2008 Author Share Posted October 1, 2008 WOW !!! THAT IS A REALLY NICE RIG ! Is it a home-build? and Could you please publish the plans/schematics if it is? I really like it a lot. Thanks for the pics. sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Yes it is home made, there are some guidelines/plans available but you really don't need them. Most of the information needed originally was sourced from various sites on the internet, and used as seen fit. The first ones made were from bits laying around in the workshop. If you look at the pictures you can see the general layout and just make yours to suit you, the most difficult bit was sourcing a suitable heat resistant flexible hose, which is why the quick release mechanism was fitted to the one in use in the pictures. The Blacksmiths Guild UK have had weekend courses making these, and they can be made easily in a couple of days. I will try to pm you a copy of the details/plans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Nice forge John. I especially appreciate your use of square legs in round holes. It's so very blacksmith. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtforge Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 Here's mine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gobae Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 Nice! What era/location are you re-enacting? It looks remarkably similar to this one. 16th Century Dutch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitebear Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 how the heck are those made of wood?? i want to know! so i can make one! Son Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateDJ Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 Here's mine O,O Wow replace your picture with one of TeeJay and you have his exact setup except his vice is mounted on the other side of that same corner and I don't think there is a crossbeam just above the bellows on the frame. He usually also doesn't have a pot on his camping set (in the background). These are built on 16th century plans and are of wood with a firebrick/adobe layer in the bottom. the main problem with them is that they are bulky, heavy and you really have to watch your work as they work VERY well and will burn your work up fast! Wish I had room for a setup like this in my garage/shop! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gobae Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 Yes, the guy who owns the 16th Century Dutch gets that sucker into his pickup with a engine hoist and come-along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitebear Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 are there plans somewhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtforge Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 how the heck are those made of wood?? i want to know! so i can make one! Son Don't they make wood stoves? I can never get more than an 8 hour burn before they're a pile of ashes. When I started doing shows about 12 years ago I didn't have much money so I used packing crates, scrap metal and a brake drum. And it had to be easily managed so it could be lifted onto a small trailer. So it comes apart into manageable pieces. It's worked very well. I talked to Jymm Hoffman at a show this fall and he educated me on his side blast forge. So I am working on building a side blast forge. It would be closer to period correct when I demonstrate at the French & Indian War or Revolutionary War events. Mine is a bottom blast but the side blast forges I've used at historical park blacksmith shops don't work well and seem more for show than use. Jymm showed me how his is set up. I'll try it and see how it works. Where can I get more info on the 16th century forge plans? And who is TEEJAY? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gobae Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 I talked to Jymm Hoffman at a show this fall and he educated me on his side blast forge. So I am working on building a side blast forge. It would be closer to period correct when I demonstrate at the French & Indian War or Revolutionary War events. Mine is a bottom blast but the side blast forges I've used at historical park blacksmith shops don't work well and seem more for show than use. What issues have you found with the park forges? And what did Jymm recommend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Martin Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 I haven't used a side-blown forge. Chris is trying to talking me into making my next one into one, but I haven't use one. Any reading material that I can do??? My demo forge, will be my current coal forge....still need get my hand-cranked blower from art sometime this spring. Then build my new coal forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Falzone Posted October 5, 2008 Author Share Posted October 5, 2008 Working a side blast forge is in most ways the same as working a bottom blast. The main difference is in design. Obviously in a side blast the tuyere blows air from the side so tuyere and bellows positioning is different. The other design difference is that with a side blast you usually need a "firewall" or a bellows-shield. The tuyere exits through a hole in the shield to feed the fire. The Norse used soapstone for bellows-shields because it's soft enough to drill a hole through, but you could use firebrick or even a steel plate for a modern side-blast forge. Not all side blast forges used a bellows-sheild in the far past. If you have a campfire and a bellows, you have a side-blast forge - it can be as simple as that. The advantage of a firewall or bellows-shield is that you can pile fuel up against the shield, giving you a deeper fire and you can deliver air directly into the centre of your pile. Other than that ... forging is forging ... (blow, heat, pound ... repeat as needed ) I would say, give some consideration about making a side-blast forge - even if it's just for the new experience. Another advantage is that if you ever find yourself at a demo where you can't use gas, coal or coke because of local bylaws, a side blast forge will allow you to use charcoal and possibly still do your demo. It likely will never happen ... but you never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 (edited) Here's a picture of a field expedient side blast forge and anvil. I'm repairing a log tong I straightened clearing trees when I started on this place. Cir 97. The air is being supplied with a 12v Coleman InflateAll, the bright yellow thing to the left near the truck. The sidedraft tuyere is a piece of 1" pipe. The forge is a hole about 10" x 18" x 10" deep. The fuel is birch burnt to coals and heating in the coals. I would've used alder but there wasn't any close and there was PLENTY of birch. The anvil is a birch round with the right swage shape to re-arc the straightened log tong leg. The next day I brought out a small anvil, tongs and some basic tools. Security was/is a Connex with American padlocks. I'm also displaying my number 1 secret, note how I'm holding my tongue. Frosty Edited October 5, 2008 by Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dwyer Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Interesting pic Frosty. Are you using your knee there? Looks like you've covered a lot of ground in 10 years. (How's that amazing shop of yours coming along?) I've been encouraged to make, and use, side blast forges, as we burn coke in our high school blacksmith classes (LOTS of clinker!). Apparently side blast can put you above the clinker, rather than having to come in from underneath them. Many of the Brit-made side blast forges have a water tank on the side with a pipe tunnel/jacket for the tureye to fit through to keep cool and slow down getting burned off, http://www.calsmith.org/techniques/forges/Side%20Blast%20forge.pdf. It's a bit more than I'm ready to tackle, especially since my classes are only about an hour long. So I can clean most of the clinkers out between sessions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 (edited) Of course, my knee is holding me up. If I had to do it more than once, maybe twice, I would've sawn another birch block to hold the birch swage at a comfortable working height. As it was, the log tong wasn't set properly so when I lifted (with a backhoe) it split the log, one point pulled free and the one that held straightened the leg before coming free. It all happened way too fast for me to lay it back down. I set the points properly when I repaired it so I didn't have to do it again. The shop hasn't seen a lot of improvement this summer seeing as I'm still under a 10lb weight restriction on my arm. Still I found an engine hoist in early spring and have been able to move stuff and get a working arrangement going. It's a long way from what it will be but I can do stuff. Could do stuff anyway, I had surgery number 5 two weeks ago, a bone graft this time so now my hip hurts. Arm feels fine but my hip is giving me fits. Oh well, the followup last week showed bone growth in the gap this time so this should (sound of fierce wood knocking) be the last surgery. Truth to tell, the only side draft forges I've ever used were of the field expedient kind and they've always worked just fine. Of course you have to position your work differently but you can do that by observing where the hot spot is and how the steel reacts. I never gave it much thought, I just dug the holes, stuck the pipe in, lit it up and worked with it when I had a bed of coals. Water cooled tuyeres are common in coke forges but they are generally burning 8-10 hrs a day or better. If I weren't happy with the lifespan of an iron or steel tuyere I'd try making one from rammable refractory. Frosty Edited October 5, 2008 by Frosty One signiture is plenty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Still working on this portable forge, according to Government specs. Making the wheels is difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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