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Philosophical "Razors"


rockstar.esq

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anvil,

I'll try to answer your comment in terms of practical philosophy first, then I'll attempt to apply those principles to your craftsman paradigm.

The sentence you quoted from my post, built on the context I established in the two paragraphs preceding it. 

If the nature of the application constrains the potential combination of inputs a system such that they can never combine in certain ways, the solution for that system doesn't need to concern itself with what the outputs for the impossible inputs might be.

Since we're trying to unravel truth from what we observe, we're looking at outputs, trying to define the system necessary to deliver the inputs we can test for.  In Boolean logic, everything is binary, yes or no, one or zero, true or false.

It's super easy to get wrapped up in the things we can measure, without every concerning ourselves with whether the things we measure are actually instructive to defining the system in the middle.  This approach also has the effect of promoting equality of minutia, over the priority of natural order.

Here's an example of the foolishness I alluded to.

Imagine someone measuring a particle of sand with a micrometer, while standing in a stream, to answer where water comes from.

It seems obvious to me that we have a moral obligation to trim unlikely explanations, otherwise a lifetime of measurement will pass, and no truth will be revealed.

I hope we can all agree on that.

 

So on to your craftsman paradigm and how it relates to practical philosophy as I understand it.  

57 minutes ago, anvil said:

Who defines "foolish"?  I believe there are far more who aren't craftsmen that define its pursuit as foolish, than those who are successful as craftsmen.  

So there's group A, who consider the pursuit of craftsmanship to be foolish, and they outnumber group B, who are successful craftsman.

On that simple statement, I think we agree.  I spend every working day selling electrical work to people who chose to pursue skills that don't permit them to do the craftsman's work themselves.  We definitely have more customers than competitors.

Based on our previous interactions over business practices, I think it's possible you meant something a bit more nuanced.  

Our previous interactions have largely consisted of my objection to the "build it and they will come" approach to entrepreneurship.  I don't believe in magical financial protection for even the most amazing craftsmen who ignore business fundamentals. All of this is consistent with basic fundamentals of business that were probably established knowledge to ancient Romans.  History is full of impatient try-hards who launched themselves off a precipice, with only their ego to sustain them for the remainder of their life.  

I do however concede, that there are always, and will always, be people who got lucky.  When I applied myself to figuring out what made them lucky, I concluded that it was their timing.  That's useful information I obtained through philosophical inquiry.

I hope that we can agree that luck, does not reside among a list of laudable skills.

But let's revisit the magical business protection for super cool craftsman concept, and see how it might apply to my earlier example of ignoring the primacy of nature in pursuit of the obscure minutia. 

Your approach to solving for the source of revenue amounts to standing in a stream just squinting until you spot something that kinda looks like beans, cheese, or sour cream from a caulking gun, because those are the only magical building blocks you will admit to.  All while scoffing at the people passing by who are walking the shore upstream.

You seem to confuse the water in your boot, as being equal to all headwaters.  Moreover, this confusion is abetted by an assumption that the gravitational mass of your collected wisdom assures that your boot will always be full. 

Streams dry up, boots leak, and sometimes big logs drift on floods, wiping all the obstructions off the watershed.  I wish you'd come ashore, and make your way to the sunny hilltop headwaters where you belong.  The millstone of superstition has kept you beyond your depth for long enough.  

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  I agree with most of what you say.  I posted that comment because I am always trying to understand where people are coming from and what causes some to fly in the face of logic.  From those that get enraged and start foaming at the mouth to those that just clam up and withdraw.  Most of the time strong reactions come from subjects and topics we are not allowed to talk about here.  Or the unknown.  I don't have any education or background in philosophy so I am learning as I go.  As usual.  I would go on, but I must tread lightly, lest I get shaved by Feynman’s Razor..... :)

  Btw, Boolean logic is too much for me unless I can use it to control a servo.  But I get your point.

1 hour ago, anvil said:

I believe there are far more who aren't craftsmen that define its pursuit as foolish

  I know people that have not a creative, crafty bone in their bodies and wonder what motivates them to get out of bed...;)

  Edit.  I posted this after rockstars comment.... :)

Edited by Scott NC
Correct a thing
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A blacksmithing friend once defined Aries as someone standing in the middle of the freeway, separating the wheat from the chaff.  I find that fits me better than your stream example.  

Luck, a new topic to our discussion. Altho I don't remember his name, an elderly and very famous classical pianist/composer was talking with a reporter. The reporter commented on how lucky he was to be in his position. His response, paraphrased, was " Lucky? If luck means practicing 24-7-365, then yes,,, I'm lucky. 

Timing: Timing is all, combined with the 3 "D's", Desire, Dedication, Determination, creates success.  Timing does affect us all, and we all choose how to deal with it. Considering our discussion, the 40-50 year population boom in Colorado has created many opportunities,,  some build shopping malls and tract homes whilst others become craftsmen. They are all viable choices and pathways with none being any better or worse, just choices that we make. The timing was right for both of us.  

Walking on the bank of the stream is an interesting concept. Let me give you a personal example. You being from the greater Denver area, I'm sure you know of the Rampart Range Road. I lived on the rampart for many years. Cross country skiing was my passion. As the area grew, the local cultural rags began to print many articles glorifying the RRR as a beautiful ski trail. They closed the road just above me every year, and there began the trail. Well, I'd gone out my back door to begin my skiing in the National Forest for a couple of decades and it was superb. Virgin powder snow, no people, blue sky's,,, all you could expect. One day I decided to try the trail that was touted in the news. The first thing I saw was a mass of parked cars, nearly 100 people in line trecking on well worn trails, trash scattered along the way and noise...  All I could do was shake my head and think,,, different strokes for different folks. I commented on the crowd and one person said you should see it when its really busy. I told him and his partner of the pristine beauty just 50' away and down the hill. The look on their faces was all the needed answer. I turned around and went home and within 30 minutes was headed out my back door and into my own personal beauty that I was so lucky to have as my back door. If you follow the well worn trail, one behind the other, or jump from rock to rock in the stream is just a personal choice.  It is not an empirical or boolean equation, its absolutely nothing more than a subjective choice. You know what the really sad note was, concerning that couple? They didn't even know the stream below existed! 

What I find interesting is the anger from those who are in your profession twards craftsmen in general. Why the anger? I accept without question that in modern construction the need for craftsmen is limited. Trades rule, and appropriately so.  I have no clue, but say 80%-90% of construction has no need for craftsmen? But that last %? It cannot exist without craftsmen,,, unless your goal is complete mediocrity. The clients in that segment demand it. And yet, contractor after contractor try to convince their clients that their demands are frivolous. But not all... ;) Not all,,,  And the rest provide a great business for those who apply the 3 "D"s and put in the absolutely needed time to master their craft.

Anger often comes from a threat. Why is that small % such a threat? That, my friend, is what puzzles me.    

Lol, Scott, creativity and craftsmanship often do not go hand in hand. Speaking for "we who have little to no creativity", dedication to technique can fool many into believing we are creative.  :)   I think my creativity lies in my ability to figure out a pathway to success, not in the creativity of my iron.   

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Anvil,

I have absolutely no animosity against craftsmen, or craftsmanship.  You might be referring to a comment from long ago about how I objected to pretentious marketing practices, and double standards.

It's not too hard to find a block of cheese with "Artisanal hand-crafted" labeling on it. Trendy grocery stores have pretty photos of posed farmers looking very earnest and humble.  It's all pitched with revolutionary zeal, where all the buyers of overpriced but pretty, life downgrades can feel honest, good, and a little smarter.  The hokum starts with expensive advertising campaigns telling everyone "We believe... something, something, better for all".  It doesn't matter if they're selling a phone plan, or an overpriced cucumber, there's nothing new about slapping a pretentious veneer of semi-magical knowledge on a campaign asking consumers to hastily reject basic value considerations.  Apologies in advance to all the knifemakers here who make a similar sales pitch.
 

Meanwhile, construction workers are expected to enter buildings away from public view, we're not allowed to use public toilets, and our vocations are seen as a consolation prize for people who weren't either smart or creative enough to do something important.

We often spend twenty years honing our abilities, skills, and knowledge.  We can Master our craft,  lead others, teach others, leave the world better than we found it.  We are a vital part of building the world we all live in, which I suspect is our greatest offence to the sensibilities of impractical people pitching pretentious double-standards.

Odds are good to excellent that somebody in Boulder County is honing their craft as a didgeridoo playing unicyclist.  I bet there's a specialist who writes atonal accompaniment to poetry in iambic pentameter.  The layperson might see a wobbly guy with a mop handle and broken bicycle humming to himself.  But for all the parts that matter, this guy is really invested in honing his craft.

He sees the streams that nobody knows about, he really knows things about nature.  He says you shouldn't worry about success, as he can always imagine a better world.

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Lol, obviously for some reason you seem to be stumbling across Cheap affordable pseudo craftsmanship and in all the right places.  I suggest you head up to Carbondale and meet some of the fine iron craftsmen there. Think Francis Whitaker/Tom Joyce quality work,if you know who they are,, and priced accordingly.  It beats Laramer Street and Boulder by a long shot.  

Your above post Sounds pretty hostile to me,,, not to mention that here at IFI, you won't find any of that stuff, nor that quality of junk and babble. You will find a lot of people freely giving of there knowledge to others.  I learned decades ago to stay away from Boulder, but hey, whatever floats yer boat. 

I would suggest that you consider "master your trade" not "craft". They are very different and both are valid and important in the world of construction even when they do the same basic project. Neither is better than the other, unless you get yer knowledge from Boulder,,,  ;)  Both are dedicated and all things considered have excellent skillsets.  There should be no ego bashing between the two. For you to consider a smith to do railings in a new shopping mall is ludicrous, as is having a fabricator do shopping mall type railings in a multi-million dollar home. And yet, those who do your type of work do just that and every time you do, you short your pocket book and massively undersell your client.  Tell me thats not a true statement of the state of affairs in todays world of construction, not to mention a poor business practice.  

I spent my time,, well, I'll change the noun out of respect for the kids,,, mucking thru the "stuff" seeking pearls. And I found them. The muck was the general world of construction, interior decorators, builders, architects, developers, etc, etc, and without a doubt most have your beliefs as to craftsmen and our work. However i didn't quit and found those pearls,, all of the above who were looking for and recognized the value and wants of their clientele. I can't tell you how tiring it gets having people in those positions trying to talk me into doing craftsman work whilst insisting I fit my bid both dollars and time into the mold of a fab shop. Not a one of those "pearls ever attempted to do that. Many had a far better grasp of pricing and encouraged me to price accordingly. 

From what you post I believe that you have very little real knowledge as to what craftsman and their product actually are considering time and money, much less how and where it actually fits into the grand scheme of things. 

Heres a hint: A fab shop makes money by how many pounds per hour of iron he moves thru his door. A craftsman's shop makes his money by how many hours he puts into each ounce that goes thru his shop. Just in case you are not aware of it, both business principals have been around for thousands of years. Its amazing how many people want the beauty of a hand forged leaf, but expect to pay the same price as one that is stamped out by the thousands. Tom Bredlow had a great one liner for this. You prolly don't know of him so a little background. He was one of the first presidents of ABANA and one of the founders. He was from Tucson and did fine work in the National Cathedral in D. C. One day a guy came into his shop with a stamped leaf. "Tom, look at this leaf. Its just like yours and costs pennies!" "Just like mine? And for pennies? Guess I might as well make my own."  

I have no doubt that you are good at your job and my posts on your thread are not a forlorn hope to have you "see the light". My reason is, with all due respect, to encourage those who come here looking for advice on business as craftsmen on what to expect out i the real world and not to become discouraged by "those who follow the road beside the stream".  

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On 2/23/2023 at 6:11 PM, rockstar.esq said:

Now there are tons of situations where certain combinations of inputs can never, and will never, happen.  So we don't have to care about what the outputs might be in those impossible scenarios.  This leads to several boolean circuits which are all capable of meeting the design criteria. 

To take this a step further:  we often hear about planning for "the worst case scenario," and in certain cases that makes sense.  However, when it comes to allocating both time and resources we're frequently much better off planning for the range of most likely scenarios.

As a silly example, you may be concerned about your house being burglarized.  The worst case scenario you might be able to think of could be a group of highly trained, technologically skilled thieves and murderers who possess the knowledge and skill to defeat alarm systems, cut through inches of steel, and escape without a trace. 

However, the most likely scenario is more along the lines of a couple teenagers looking for easy targets of opportunity. 

A dog and a deadbolt will handle the most likely scenario, not so much with the worst possible scenario.

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Irondragon, That was deftly done!

Scott NC. Your post reminded me of Brandolini's Law which I will politely re-phrase to; The amount of energy needed to refute nonsense, is an order of magnitude greater than that needed to create it.

Buzzkill, That's a really good point about "worst case scenario" thinking.  A parallel to that is when people start thinking about a list of things.  It's really common to focus on adding items to the list, rather than focusing on what's likely to be necessary.  

I run into this with pricing work for inexperienced clients.  They'll often ask for menu pricing on so many things that the answers aren't helpful for informing the decision they were trying to make.  I had one client who asked for fifty breakout prices on a bid where I narrowly beat my competitors.  I politely explained to him that he was facing the lowest possible risk of an error in my bid since it was so cheap to just go to the next lowest competitor.  

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This isn't really about philisophical razors but since it was mentioned I will give my take on it.  To me, a "trade" and a "craft" both require a good deal of knowledge and experience and neither is inferior to the other.  However, a trade, to me, is assembling pre made components to make a functional something or system.  Think of a builder assembling all the parts necessary for a house.  There are sub trades like plumbers and electricians who are assembling the components of their specialities.  They really have to know how and why things go together the way they should, e.g. why there has to be a vent valve on a P trap in the plumbing system.  This may be akin to "fabrication."

On the other hand, a crafts person, blacksmith, wood worker, potter, weaver, etc. is starting with raw material and creating something from that material.  It may require a high degree of creativity and the skill to execute the vision or it may be as simple as bending a piece of metal and drilling or punching holes in it to make an L bracket.  Crafts folk usually don't end up with a complex system like an office building or even one of it's component systems. 

Both involve "creativity" but the trades frequently apply it to problem solving, e.g. how do we get all the systems, electric, plumbing, and HVAC into a space without compromising each other (yes, I know that is supposed to be the architect's job but my experience is that issues often get solved by the specialized contractors gettting their heads together.).  Craft folk are creative about how to manipulate a raw material such as steel, wood, clay, wool, etc. to accomplish a particular goal and what that goal should look like at the end. 

Esthetics, how a thing looks, are often involved in craft while not so much in the trades.  Maybe that makes craft more akin to "art."

'Nuff said.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand." 

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Well said, George. All things being equal, the skill level of the crafts and trades are equal. Ego has no place here. Having been a farrier for many years, I have no problem being both farrier/tradesman and blacksmith/craftsman. 

Rockstar, this thread shows me something that we both have in common and that is our views on the stereotype of Boulder and the folks that live there. Its always good to find common ground.  ;)  

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George,

I understand your perspective, and I have no doubt that many share it. Seems pretty obvious that the meaning of words tends to shift with popular opinion, and there's been a whole lot of time passed since there was only one meaning to stuff like Tradesman, or Craftsman.  Marketing hasn't improved the practical definition of most words in my opinion.

I would like to suggest that "Craft" hewing more towards meaning art from raw material is a potentially messy suggestion as it's based on subjective criteria.

In my youth, I was often curious about why so many skilled people were grumpy.  It seemed like all the people who knew how to do things weren't too satisfied with their situation in the world. 

Time and experience has taught me that there's a subtle thread that runs through a lot of misery.  It starts with people who aren't happy with where they find themselves in whatever hierarchy applies to them.  It doesn't matter if we're talking about rank in the working world, or deciding who's the best-looking person waiting in line for a hotdog.

One of those people will decide that the objectively obvious ranking isn't what it seems because they're smarter than everyone else.  They know that a slight shift in wording, can change objective facts into subjective openings to whatever they're pursuing.  I surmise that a fair number of these people specialize in marketing, politics, and religion.

What follows is a wave of people who follow the lie of that example, to make the case that anything important enough to generate a hierarchy, must be mostly comprised of subjectivity.  This is a hollow victory, because subjectivity in this case, is just the story we tell ourselves to feel better about how things really are.

Now that everything is subjective, there's no honest victory to be had in improving your place in the objective rankings, so people quit trying.  Moreover, they assume that everyone else quit trying.  Therefore anyone reaching hierarchies of success, must be cheating, lucky, or lying.

This nonsense has penetrated everything from the top down.  Art and architecture are constantly referred to as impossibly subjective.  That's a lie, and it's always been a lie.  Tourism to post-war art and architect is nothing compared to pre-war art and architecture.  Post-war art and architecture has all the accolades, academic distinction, and status among the current cognoscenti.  An entire spectrum of hierarchies were built to foist terrible modernism on the world's population.  When the world's population expresses their preferences, they are consistently, and overwhelmingly in accord with classical models of beauty. 

It's true that we might all differ about how much we like this, or that, but the simple truth is that we can see the difference between an oak and a rose, just as we might see one rose as different from its neighbor.  By falsely applying subjectivity to everything, all the trees and flowers get dug up, so featureless bricks can get planted. 

My dad was one of those skilled grumps.  He'd break his back doing his best for people, then turn around and sabotage any hope of making money from the work.  His silly prejudices about successful people being cheaters, liars, or lucky led him to the wrong answers every time.  If he'd chosen to do the work as charity, he could enjoy the satisfaction of his accomplishment.  If he had chosen to do the work time and material, he could have objective proof of an honest day's work for an honest day's pay.  

Instead, we spent my childhood fixing stuff for people who would sit and argue with him for hours about how he clearly wasn't covering his costs, in a situation where they really couldn't afford to pay much more.  Most of these arguments ended with an elderly woman tearfully pushing a check into his hand for more than he asked for.  Later mom would lose her temper because he'd done a hard week's work to come away with a day's worth of wages.  He was a grumpy skilled guy, because he rejected objective truths about how the world actually works.  

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Lol, I live in the Rocky Mountains, I understand boulders.  I built a stone shop once upon a time. I learned that sometimes todays rocks become tomorrows boulders. Must be an age thing.  

Scott,,, Huh?   :)     

Rockstar, Thats a hard act to follow. Just remember, we all have our own points of view,,, and crosses to bear.  I hope your lifes journada has brought you as much satisfaction as mine has brought me.  

 

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19 hours ago, anvil said:

Scott,,, Huh?   :)   

  A lame attempt at humor on a bad day.  I should have avoided the internet entirely....  The day ended eventually, going off the rails in a flaming, smoke billowing trainwreck.  I need a philosophical razor or method to avoid those days.  This comes close:

"I'd simplify that to, learning to smell it, before you step in it, and track it into places it doesn't belong." -Rockstar-

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I got it Scott. When you're feeling down even a lame attempt at humor is a good thing. It wasn't mean so it wasn't lame even if it went over folk's heads.

It's been decades since I looked into the etymology of "craft vs. trade" being involved in a discussion very like this one. I'm not doing it again though so as best as my memory can conjure.

A Craft is a specific type or group of skills, usually involved in manufacture.(making) Say Potter, farmer, carver, etc. A craftsman/woman/ whatever is a person who has mastered a craft. Mastery meaning proficient in the context being different levels of mastery.

A Trade is a type of work that provides a living. Literally I'll trade you these turnips for your charcoal. Someone who carves may do it for enjoyment and remain a craftsman if on the other hand s/he's selling or trading on his craft it's his trade.

What marketers do is a trade in itself. All competition is for resources, food, gold, sunlight, esteem, etc. It extends from the simplest chemical reactions to the loftiest civilizations. All reactions continue to the limit of the resources. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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Awe, I was getting all excited there for a moment Scott. Guess I'll make do with a pic of her cane and our patch of forest to choose from. I hadn't thought of a good swatter and poker till now though. :)

Frosty The Lucky.

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  I will take a picture of it.  It had a rubber tip on it that she said covered up a point she whittled on it and would take off if she was really mad.  I checked once and she was bluffing.

c1_20230312_14091768.thumb.jpeg.e5bcb38455d9490c60390b84b7d946d6.jpegc1_20230312_14101691.thumb.jpeg.9e4cd0af4714929987fb3de6801b69e5.jpeg

  I included a close up of the tip where you can see the old duct tape that held the rubber tip on.  Grandpa's was more of a bludgeon and I still have that one too.

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