Mikey98118 Posted July 26, 2023 Share Posted July 26, 2023 I gave up on herding cats and other fruitless pursuits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 26, 2023 Share Posted July 26, 2023 I mostly just roll my eyes and move on but once in a while I have to practice the futile or my rep would suffer. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeHene Posted July 28, 2023 Author Share Posted July 28, 2023 Mikey, I experimented with raising the burner today. When I put it up inside the burner mount tube, it concintrated the gas flow straight down. In the attached picture, I have it up as far as possible without restricting the spread. I can confidently say that this little forge is probably as good as it's gonna get. (Zero dragon's breath either.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 Your burner continues to provide good lessons. The second one is a reminder that the flame doesn't always need to complete combustion in a single flame envelope, to do quite well in heating up a forge. If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes, I wouldn't have believed it to be possible. Once again, circumstances alters cases. Thank you for refining what I think I know about burner and forge design Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeHene Posted July 29, 2023 Author Share Posted July 29, 2023 Mikey, in life I've found that sometimes it's easier to think outside the box when one does not yet know enough to HAVE a box to think in. I could have never done anything close without the wealth of knowledge and experience that you, Frosty and others have made available on this forum. Thank you guys! Now I need to start working a lot more on my actual [lack of] forging skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 29, 2023 Share Posted July 29, 2023 3 hours ago, LeeHene said: Mikey, in life I've found that sometimes it's easier to think outside the box when one does not yet know enough to HAVE a box to think in. Heh, heh, heh. I say something similar about folks watching demos or people doing things they no very little if anything about. I LOVE to have children watch demos because their observations, opinions and ideas are unpolluted by knowledge. I've gotten some great ideas from kids asking questions about what they "see". They have no box, it takes time to grow a box about 12-13 years and you KNOW everything. Then you discover almost nothing you know works and grow up. Anyway, I spend lots of time explaining why something someone thought up isn't working and isn't likely to. But every once in a while someone figures a thing out and it works a treat. I call BINGO Lee. I'd never build a burner that produced a flame like yours but by golly your burner works very nicely and I'll have to file it in my "works well" file. Well done. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted July 29, 2023 Share Posted July 29, 2023 Frosty is right about your burner, Lee. Once or twice a year on IFI, someone shows us something neat about burner design, or forge design; but seldom game changing. The pattern of your burner's flames dove-tails nicely into short WIDE-WIDE-LOW box forges; this could be a game changer for many smiths Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeHene Posted July 29, 2023 Author Share Posted July 29, 2023 Thank you guys. I realize the burner is a very application specific design, but maybe it can help others get decent verastility out of similar small forges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 30, 2023 Share Posted July 30, 2023 I'd never say your burner is only good in a wide low forge until I'd tried it in a bunch of different shapes. I'd LOVE to see how it worked mounted high across the top of a vault shaped forge. Then in a cylindrical forge, etc. Getting even heat in a forge is very popular and a naturally fan shaped flame should be primo. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeHene Posted August 8, 2023 Author Share Posted August 8, 2023 I completed my first knife this weekend. It was mystery steel from an undisclosed source. The heat treat turned out acceptable, considering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeHene Posted January 7 Author Share Posted January 7 Hey guys, thought I'd check in. I'm still using that last burner design. I've tried a couple others, but for gerenal forging it heats more even and efficiently by far. It's also a whole lot easier to keep the flame anchored to the end of the burner while starting up. Due to the brief restriction at the outlet, I've never had the flame travel up into the burner tube. This afternoon on a whim, I tried using a straight pipe for the burner. I estimate it was able to get 100-200 degrees hotter (based on color), at the expense of having to constantly relight the flame and play with settings for the first 5 minutes. It also used a whole lot more propane. (I'd estimate about 3x more, based on regulator adjustment and air required to balance it.). Anyway, I just wanted to thank everyone again for your support and encouragement. Without the resources I found on this forum, I'd have probably given up early on. Oh, and that cheap little 12vdc blower that I got for $10 is still going strong. FORGE ON! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 On 1/7/2024 at 10:56 AM, LeeHene said: It also used a whole lot more propane. (I'd estimate about 3x more, based on regulator adjustment and air required to balance it.) That arrangement needs more work. You should only use a little more fuel to heat your forge up to yellow heat. Sometimes you need to just travel the well worn path, to get what you want. Look into slide-over stepped flame retention nozzles for the burner. If the there isn't sufficient room to use such a nozzle, without messing up your burner opening, build a smaller burner, and try that out. If you find that the saller burner only brings your forge up to orange heat, move the baffle wall 1" away from the exhaust opening, so that it can be closed down closer around the heating stock, without building back-pressure on the burner. Don't forget to paint the baffle wall's bricks with whatever you used on the rest of the forge interior. The nicest part about small 12V DC motors is that they can be replaced very cheaply, when the time comes. When I first started experimenting with axial computer fans on forced-flow burners back in 2014, the oddity of powerful motors being mounted on burners, as though they were coal forges, and then chocked back, to supply what ended up being only a whisper of useful added air, struck me as quite funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 I have two main thoughts. but a little background story first. The main point being unless you change the nozzle fuel usage shouldn't change at a given psi. Some burners are more efficient but too often less effective. I'd suspect your flame velocity is high enough superheated combustion products are blowing through your forge instead of hanging out transferring energy to the line so it can work for you. My other thought is the wide open ends venting HOT gasses before they CAN transfer their energy while radiating infra-red to your shop rather than bouncing it around IN the forge where it can work for you. My first experiment would be with baffle walls on the openings. Then maybe repositioning the burner to swirls the flame in more or less one direction in the chamber. I think I mentioned aiming it across the top of the chamber but down at an angle across the floor to produce a swirl works well too. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeHene Posted January 9 Author Share Posted January 9 Thanks guys. That last picture was with my previous burner nozzle design that I've been using. (The top brick on the front of the forge was temporarily removed for the picture.) The nozzle works well, but the bit of restriction it adds prevents my small blower from supplying the air needed for forge welding temperature. In a previous design, I had an additional 1" 90 to drop the fan input lower. That hurt output enough that I quickly changed back. The open nozzle I mentioned was requiring that much air and gas to keep the flame out of the burner throat. Recently I also tried a modified nozzle (that, oddly enough, I made with the forge) to kick the flame over to the side. I guess it did ok, but I wasn't impressed enough with it to bother letting the whole forge heat up. It seemed to really be concentrating the heat in one spot far more than my favorite nozzle. Maybe I should give it another whirl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 Two thoughts. If you can keep the same angle, move the burner to the right. You can see how the burner port in the forge liner is deforming the flame. Second. fill the gap between the firebrick floor and the wall the flame is following so it doesn't get caught in the gap. This will allow the flame a smooth path so it can heat more liner surface and swirl in the chamber more freely. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeHene Posted January 9 Author Share Posted January 9 I'll give it a try! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeHene Posted February 25 Author Share Posted February 25 Hey guys, its been a while but I only get to sneak into the machine shop at work occasionally. I finally got to complete the latest version of my burner design. I think it might be a keeper! Introducing... The HALO burner! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 Glad to meet the HALO burner Lee. Get any pics of a HOT forge so we can see how it looks? How about a pic of the burner itself, you have my interest. I LOVE new flame shapes. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeHene Posted February 25 Author Share Posted February 25 It's hard to get a good picture of what my eye actually sees. The ceiling and walls heat first and it slowly travels down to the floor and then closes in toward the middle. It's hard to get a good picture of what my eye actually sees. The ceiling and walls heat first and it slowly travels down to the floor and then closes in toward the middle. Sorry for the double text above. This forum editor is kinda screwy sometimes. Anyway, below is my burner insert. I made the mistake of poking it and it fell out. (This started as a test fit anyway.) Apparently it stayed cool enough to prevent discoloration on all but the bottom face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 When it comes to burner design, I think you're on a roll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeHene Posted February 25 Author Share Posted February 25 Thank you! I never can leave anything well enough alone. Last night I fired it up briefly but haven't had the opportunity to heat any steel. I hope the new burner will help reduce scaling caused by direct contact with the flame. That said, I might miss having a hot spot handy. I need to look into a better blower design. I've been using the same 12VDC blower for over a year. I do like using a smaller one but I wish it would maintain a bit higher static pressure. (Plus it vibrates a good bit.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 I like what it does in the forge and I think I understand the insert. Have any sketches so I can see it's innards? What was the insert originally? Frosty The Lucky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeHene Posted February 25 Author Share Posted February 25 The insert goes inside of a 3/4 black iron pipe that I cut down to size. I squared the end and trued the inside on a lathe. The spacer for the insert started as a piece of steel round stock that I turned down to just barely fit inside the 3/4 pipe after trueing. While it was still in the lathe I drilled a 5mm hole in the center. I cut the rest of it to shape with a milling machine. The cone of the insert is a 14mm (I think) stainless flathead bolt that I turned down to just a hair over 5mm then pressed into the spacer. I'll try to get a better picture of the assembly tonight after I get home from work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 AHH HAH A flat head screw explains the hex!. I like it a lot now and there is oh SO much room to tinker! Frosty The Lucky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 I suspect that manipulating the patterns of multiple flame orifice ceramic heads and stainless steel flame retention nozzles, will be the next big improvement in burner design. The clever part will be in keeping the construction simple enough to interest novices. So, repurposed parts will remain key? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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