H13 cracked while working

[huntmaster99]

Im a very new smith, just started forging pieces a few weeks ago, having a blast etc. I was in the process of working a large piece of H13 slowly but surely into a hot cut hardy tool. I had done some research on it and saw it was an air hardening steel that was shock resistant and made for hot work. I thought it was a great alloy for my purposes if not a pain in the butt to work, but hey one swing of the hammer at a time.

I was drawing it down into the tenon for the hardy hole and all of a sudden it just split in 2 pieces when I struck it... never worked with this alloy before so im curious as what happened and what I can do better since I have a bunch of this stuff. I can go into detail on how I got it if desired but I maybe this is enough to solve it. Third piece broke off after i dropped the smaller one on the concrete floor from anvil height. I know youre supposed to keep this stuff hot so beyond I didnt keep it hot enough Im not sure

[Daswulf]

It "looks" over heated. I'm not very knowledgable on the alloy but looks like it to me. 

[huntmaster99]

Hmmm, possibly. I dont think I ever got it above a yellow heat. The forge was too bright to look into but the steel wasnt ever that bright. I am still learning to tell colors and its night time so perception is different

[Charles R. Stevens]

H13 has a very narrow  working rang of yellow and orange heats. Do not work it red, as buy then it’s already getting hard. 

[huntmaster99]

Do you think I can still utilize and salvage the rest of the billet? And I may have been guilty of forging it when it was in the red zone in a similar area to where the crack occured

Edited December 8, 2022 by Mod30
Remove excessive quote.

[Charles R. Stevens]

You can download an app for your phone that uses your camera to judge temp buy light imitions

[huntmaster99]

Ok Ill give that a try then and see if that can guide me a little more

[Charles R. Stevens]

I would be hesitant as to doing so for a tool. Likely to have micro fractures threw the area. 

[Steve Sells]

I suggest you learn how to forge normal steels before playing with air hardening steel, but since I doubt you will listen to reason, you must remember that with Air hardening steels you can either work entirely above hardening temp NEVER letting it get below conversion temperatures until finished, or do the work below hardening temp and barely move it, but you can work them a little at a time stopping to rest as needed

[Charles R. Stevens]

learning curve 

 

[huntmaster99]

Absolutely, there isnt a time when I dont walk out to the anvil and learn something. Unfortunately I wish I had a little better access to "normal" tool steels but I pick through a rack of steel off cuts from a machine  shop  (im guessing here) and theyre all marked (if theyre marked at all) H13, D2, A2 and if im really lucky O-1 or O-2. Theres 4140 in there if its marked but the rest is unmarked and a guessing game. But its cheaper than buying online and its from the same place that sells mild steel in just about any size. Yeah I made a newbie mistake, but hey here I am learning from it.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Mod30
Excessive quoting

[Charles R. Stevens]

Not that Steve and I haven’t screwed up, lol. I used to keep a quench bucket at the front of the anvil....

dropped an H13 bob punch in it when it slipped from the tongs. It now has a lid

[huntmaster99]

I can only imagine, any other tips for working with the stuff since its the vast majority of what I have access to?

[Latticino]

I'd certainly start making hardy tools from 4140 before jumping to H-13 (or even A-2 or D-2).  As others have stated, it is a bear to work with, particularly without a power hammer or press.  Even 4140 in hardy tool size will benefit from having a friend onboard to strike.  I have overheated H-13 in a coal forge and had it crumble under the hammer.  Hard to tell for sure from the photo, but your grain looks massive.  Did you soak the steel for a long time at high yellow?

Also, if you can get usable sizes of H-13 at mild steel prices, I suggest you buy a bunch and sell it at a modest markup to the smiths here.  Great way to make friends.  I'd sure be happy to take some off your hands at $1/# or thereabouts.

[huntmaster99]

Never thought about that, but yes I did soak it for quite some time at a yellow heat or higher. Im still learning my forge and how much gas is actually needed to get the heat I want. I wish I had a press or a hammer but currently its attached to my shoulder and thats the best I have the money for. Sadly I cant get it that cheap, i end up paying about 3.40$ per Lbs for it and any other tool steel alloy I buy from them. If you have any other recommendations for places to source specific alloys then id be appreciative.

[Frazer]

H13 is an excellent steel. However, as others have mentioned, it's not an easy one to work with. Opinions will differ on the "correct" working range. Numbers and charts are useful if you can actually translate them into how they apply once you're in the shop, hammer in hand. I generally do all the forging at a yellow heat. As it transitions to orange you can really feel it stiffen up under the hammer. IMO you're not doing your arm or the material any favors by trying to make it move much more. I tend to use orange for planishing more than anything else. It also doesn't like stress risers so add those in last when possible.. or arc weld the shank on at the end

I'm no stranger to using overkill steels in unnecessary applications (I made a hammer out of S5 once.... just because). However, H13 is really well suited for things that are going to be sunk into a thick piece of hot steel and (possibly) spend some time in there (i.e. hammer eye punches) or tools that come down to a relatively thin working end (i.e. slitters) that you don't want to bend/mushroom, etc. over time. For something like a hardy, which realistically doesn't get very hot, you really aren't using it to its full potential nor its strengths.

H13 also gets surprisingly hard when quenched properly; it can skate a file. Even after tempering - which is done at a higher temperature than you perhaps expect - it's extremely tough. This means you're probably going to cut into your hammer face accidentally.. Personally, I would rather dress a squished edge on my hardy vs redress the face of my hammer because I put a nice slit right down the middle. 

If I were you, I would make all my tools out of simple steels or, if you're cheap like me, recycled steels* (coil springs, car axles) etc.. Once you have a nice assortment of tools that you've made (and more importantly the experience you've gained making them) go back and remake the ones that you use most often and/or the ones that you think need a more robust material. First get a decent understanding of the process, then repetition (x3) so you can confidently apply that process THEN add the complication of the material fighting you at every step along the way.

I think we've all been in your shoes... Can the fancy tool steels make a better tool sometimes? Yes. However, a well forged tool out mild steel will, in many cases, work much better than poorly made (let alone a broken/unfinished) one made of some cool, modern, super alloy...

Unfortunately, other than working with someone who is more experienced, there are no shortcuts to building a solid foundation. Crawl, then walk, then run.

 

*I've gone on plenty long enough, but if you haven't already, read about: materials/things to avoid, potential dangers, spark testing, etc. as it relates to recycled materials. In rust we trust

 

[Latticino]

I misread your post and thought you got the H-13 as drops for the same price as mild steel, not at the same place .  $3.40 a pound isn't outrageous for H-13 (certainly less than McMaster Carr), but it is more than I would be ready to jump on until I had a specific project in mind.

I agree with Fraser regarding use of the H-13.  In fact that is exactly what I've used it for in the past.  I have H-13 hammer and tomahawk drifts and a hammer eye punch that have held up extremely well.

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Huntmaster, glad to have you. I'm afraid you've made a typical beginner mistake, thinking you need tool steel and worse picked up a very difficult alloy. High yellow is WAY TOO HOT! Below ORANGE is WAY TOO COLD!

You can make a hardy from darned near any decent steel, my commercially made Atha, hardy sparks orange on the grinder and a center punch marks it easily. I strongly doubt its even medium carbon steel. An axle makes fine hardies and it's hard enough to work to give you a taste of heavy forging and it's not nearly so temperature sensitive. Spring steel is also a good option for most smithing tools, leaf and coil both have advantages over the other. If you don't have an automotive wrecking yard or better a scrap yard that will sell to the public, check with automotive, truck or heavy equipment repair shops, offer to pay scrap prices to sort through the scrap bin. Most will just point you at the dumpster or pile and tell you to be careful. Bring basic PPE, leather boots, glove, safety glasses and perhaps a box of doughnuts.

A few inches of leaf spring can be forged or cut down to fit corner to corner in your hardy hole so it rests on shoulders and sharpened on top. If you want to forge the blade down let the edge curve like an axe blade and don't make it long and thin. Hot cuts do have more thin blades but they aren't kitchen knives, think axe blade "thin". A "Hack" is a reasonably easy beginner project from 5/8"+ coil spring, it's basically a tall-ish narrow wedge that lays on the anvil face you drive HOT stock onto to cut. 

Check with local tool rental places for worn jack hammer bits, spade bits are almost ready made hardies. You'll need to draw down a shank and shoulder it but all the blade needs is some grinder time. Mind the temperature and do NOT touch water at heat with it! Typically they're made from a high-ish medium carbon steel, say in around the 1060-70 range and aren't too time temp sensitive. 

I strongly recommend beginners stick to mild or at most medium carbon steels until you've mastered the basic skills to a proficient level. Until  you've developed the skills sets to manage temperature and work reasonably quickly stay away from that steel supplier, if you have a couple pieces of H-13, put the on the shelf for later or resale. It's difficult to work for experienced smiths. Think of it like buying a P-51 Mustang to teach yourself to fly in. 

I highly recommend picking up drops from that supplier and offer them for resale, in the Iforge "tailgate" section or other smithing sites, just don't go buying a bunch until you find out how it sells. 

Stick with us, we'll coach you along, it's what a lot of us are here for.

Frosty The Lucky.

[huntmaster99]

Thanks for the advice Frosty.
Ive been spending a few hours calling around places in St Louis to see if there is a scrapyard that will sell pieces but I have yet to find one thats willing to sell to the public. Apparently there is a specific business license thats required. I will call around some auto shops and see what I can dig up, there is bound to be something around here with enough patience and persistence. Ill keep those pieces I have lying around for future use. There is a Pick your Part yard not too far away that has you bring your own tools and you can select from the various cars there, pull your part and check out. Im just not sure how hard it would be to cut off suspension springs, axles, tie rods etc off... or how safe for that matter.
Trying to see what I can get like 1050 or 4140. Something with good carbon, will make a decent tool and I can learn heat treating.
I do have a piece of O-1 I could use...

If anyone in the area knows anything Id love to hear it!

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I don't know any in your area, however I have always had luck with "go to the source". The scrap yards get their stuff from garages, body shops, heavy equipment shops, tire shops, etc. Get to know those folks and you will be surprised with what you can get.