Solid forge fuels

[Charlie M]

Hi all. I have a question for someone of experience, ( or more than I do) of solid fuels. I have been using a coal forge once or twice every few weeks for about a year now. I have been using some sort of unknown coal from an old relative, and I have nearly run out. Sadly they are no longer with us and I can't ask where it came from.. It seemed like magic coal. It seemed hard and shiny like anthracite, but it lit very easily like bituminous. It could be left for a half hour unattended- and come back and keep it going again like bituminous. I use a hand crank forge. Gave off good heats - to a forge weld, and also didn't burn wild like bituminous- green coal smoked for about 2 mins and then burnt clean with no smoke. It was able to coke- but it didn't bind like bituminous. I could have got away without using any water on those fires. I have tried several types of anthracite and haven't even been able to light them.. and I tried out bituminous today and smoked myself out. Despite that I found it very hard to control that fire. Every time I got the surface flames out, I would of taken a heat, come back and they were going again. Would anyone have a clue what type of magic coal I was using?

sorry for the long description. I would really appreciate some good knowledge.

Charlie from Northern Ireland 

 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Welcome from the Ozark mountains U.S.A.

If you have a picture of the coal you like someone may recognize it and give you a lead. We have some members in your area, if I'm not mistaken, and they may chime in shortly. We won't remember where you are located after leaving this post but if you add it to your profile we will see it with every post.

[George N. M.]

Welcome aboard from 7500' (2286 m) in SE Wyoming.  Glad to have you.

Boy it is really tough to answer your question from almost 5000 miles away.  I could give you some educated guesses in the US but not the UK.

It sounds like you have a high grade bituminous coal which may have been sold for home heating in open grates (coal fires) or other specialized uses.  You may have to do some research in coals of Ireland and the UK and what may be available today.  You should look for high BTU content, low ash content, and good agglomeration (coking).  As Irondragon says, someone with better local knowledge than us Yanks will probably be more helpful.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning Charlie,

It sounds like you had the pleasure of Coke. Where in Europe may have it come from? I know most of the Smith's in the UK are now using Coke only. It must be readily available. Send an e-mail to 'the Worshipful Company of Blacksmiths', which is the big Blacksmith group in the UK. The school in Heresford will also know where to source Coke/Coal, they use it in their Blacksmith program. There also are some members here who live in the UK, they may jump in and give you a better answer.

Welcome from the left coast of North America, the Continent of Vancouver Island (LOL).

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Charlie, glad to have you. I don't think so Neil, he says it's hard and SHINY, I've never seen shiny coke.  

Here's my thought Charlie. It shouldn't be too hard to find out who delivered coal to your old relatives or in their area. Once you have a list you can ask if their records show deliveries. Once you know who sold the coal you can find out who the supplier was down to the seam in mine. 

It'll take some detective work but it's doable.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Jobtiel1]

Welcome aboard! First of all, I don't know what kind of coals you might've had. I do know that English coal is sold as the highest grade smithing coals in the Netherlands, so I think it might not be difficult to get good smithing coals for you. 

~Jobtiel

[Charlie M]

Thank yous all very much for your replies. I'm happy 2 be aboard :-)

Now I'm not sure, but I don't think it is coke for 2 reasons, first being it was a house coal that sat out in a bunker for about 50 years. And the second being the colour, it is a dull powdery looking coal which I can only break with a hammer, but when it is broken, parts of it look shiny like glass.

I don't know where it would of been mined, or who the supplier was. I only know that it was delivered to a wee place below Belfast.

I am able to buy coke from the internet, but because I don't live in the UK mainland it is an arm and a leg to try and buy it because of shipping. And really u can only buy in bulk which is more than I need..

Are all Columbian doubles the same, or do you get different grades of it? I seem to be able to get it from not far away.

I took some pics this morning of the good coal that I was using. Pic of it green, pic of it part burned, and another of it coked.

Another thing I noticed, when it is part burned it really doesn't weigh much less than when it is green.

green coal- hard 2 see but the bottom tiny piece is glassy looking

Before it cokes ( I forget the word)

Coke

[George N. M.]

Here in the US I can get bagged coal and coke at a farrier supply place about an hour and half away from home.  I'm sure there are farriers in NI.  You might contact them to see where they obtain their fuel, if they are not using propane forges that is.  Around here some farriers use solid fuel and some propane, pretty much as a person preference.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I believe what you have is bituminous stoker coal. Used here in the states for home heating boilers and blacksmithing.

[Charlie M]

 

Would stroker coal the same as "house coal" or is house coal purely for a fire place?

I have found 1 farrier supplier in Northern Ireland. I will see what they can do tomorrow

Edited May 29, 2022 by Mod30
Remove excessive quote.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I do not know, never heard the term house coal but I suspect it is the same.

[ThomasPowers]

Another term you may find in use is "steam coal"; as it was used for firing boilers.

[Frosty]

50 years us pretty recent, the county records will show who was delivering coal and maybe who they were purchasing it from. 

Over here "stoker" is more of a size designation intended for furnaces that fed themselves, "self stoking" so uniform size was necessary to prevent it jamming the mechanism and to provide consistent heat production. It also depended on the size of the furnaces and stoking mechanisms. A home stoker might use peanut or acorn size coal where a steel mill might use apple or pumpkin size coal a power plant may powder it and blow it in the furnace with the air like a gas furnace. 

When you buy by the train load the coal company will sell whatever size you want. It's less convenient at our level.

Frosty The Lucky.

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

I bought a few 55 gallon drums awhile back of some coal that burns exactly like your describing,

some guy got into smithing an got board with it an sold all his stuff off an moved on to a new hobby lol

It doesn’t get sticky like the coal from stigler but it does coke well an is easy to light an burns a long time,

he said he bought it at vinita but I’m not sure if it’s the Oklahoma coal or the stuff they’ve been importing from outta state

[Charlie M]

I think from the time period that this coal was bought in, it has come from the UK. It seems to be that most of not all the coal mines have closed there. It must have come from Kelly's coal yard which got it's coal from 3 different mines that are all closed. So I might just have to face that I won't get coal the same again.. it was really good stuff.

I found a place not far from home that sells coke for £12 for 25kg, normal house coal over here is about £10, so not too much more. I bought a bag of it yesterday, and I will give it a go tomorrow. I don't know how it will go with my hand crank blower.

Most coal over here is just sold as anthricite, house coal, or house coal doubles. You don't really get much more info haha. Most people selling it don't even know what the word bituminous is.. I think that the "doubles and singles" is really our sizing terms.

I really appreciate all the advice. I will let yous know how it goes :-)

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

Well if ya ever come over for a visit bring a REALLY big empty suit case an we will cram  a couple hundred pounds in there for you to take home for a souvenir! 

imagine the look on the faces of the customs people when they open it up to take a look! Lol

[ThomasPowers]

TW, I took coal home from Quad-State by air once---Checked luggage, I used an old army duffle bag.  Security was more interested in the other duffle full of dirty clothes and metal from Q-S though.

[Charlie M]

Haha, maybe I should build a canoe next, fit a couple of crates in it haha.

I got using that coke yesterday. I think I like it. It has pros and cons. I found it very easy to light and to keep lit with the hand crank. I thought it took a bit longer to get to heat each time tho, and I couldn't build a shield as well to trap the heat. On the bright side there was basically no smoke. seemed to burn very like the unknown coal I had, very solid short yellow white torch like flame.

Definitely a win, and I have enjoyed the conversation. I have learned alot more about coal than I thought I needed to haha.

Thank yous all very much, hopefully someday I can repay the Advice :-) 

as it always goes, fix one problem, and then another comes up... Looks like a reason to upgrade. ( Not a small chip, a big chip on a small anvil)

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

That’s an interesting setup! 

is that one of the modern hand crank blowers I see for sale online?

if so how well does it work for you? I’ve been curious about them since I’ve seen them on the market,

the anvil looks like it’s cast iron, that may be part of your problem,

have you looked at any of the Vaughns hope works cast steel anvils made in the UK? 

i personally haven’t ever got to use one, but I’ve read others on your side of the pond saying their pretty good tools

[Frosty]

Asking good questions is as valuable as giving good answers, Charlie. You're paid up. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[George N. M.]

Charlie, that looks like one of those Vevor cast iron anvils you see on ebay.  If it is you can upgrade with just a hunk of steel which will give you a better working surface.  Are those chisel marks on the face?  I hope you didn't put them there.  If you did, shame on you for using a chisel without a bolster plate below the work to protect the anvil (actually more important if it is a soft cast iron anvil).

I'm glad you like the coke.  I have been using coke for years to minimize smoke.  It takes a little getting used to and different fire tending but now that I live in a semi-rural area where it is some distance to the neighbors I keep using coke out of habit.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Charlie M]

So my setup is really based around the factor of the small amount of space and having neighbors gardens joined on to mine. So I am working in an 8x6ft steel shed. I bought the forge and anvil about 2 years ago, when I had very little knowledge of how to use them or what to buy. So I bought the mini hand crank forge- the exact same one that GS tongs has been using in the past few of his videos. I believe that it is a cast iron bowl with a cheap blower, it rattles about a bit and I have had it open before to try and make it quieter. It seems to put a good bit of air flow through. The 2 downsides are you can't heat the center of a long bar without a a hearth- otherwise your coals would fall out (can't build a cave for instance). So I cut 12mm plate so the bowl can fit in and the plate becomes the hearth with some legs and edges on it. Second is, there is no ash dump, just a door- no problem, just takes longer to empty.

I also bought an anvil- unknown brand, but it really does look like the vevor ones. It's 10lb. My first or second time forging (when I though an anvil was designed to take any abuse) I cut on the face of it, with a big chisel... Please forgive me. I then built the base and cut 6mm plate for a 1" hardy, and 1/2" pritchel hole. Mild steel plate that I now use as my cut plate as well- a little to late. Thankfully the cuts on the anvil face don't seem to mark the work. I don't know if it is steel or cast iron, it has stayed flat which makes me think steel? It has I think about 70/80% rebound when I did a ball bearing test.

I also managed to pick up this vice for £27. Most vices over here go for about £75. It's an attwood that comes from England, I think somewhere about 1850-1900ish when it was made. A fair bit of fighting with it to get it to a pretty functional state. Had to forge a mounting bracket and spring. I haven't decided if I want a leg on it yet. I put a temporary wooden leg on.

 

Is there any advice on how to improve this setup, or anything I should be using differently? I used to have a treadle hammer I built in there, but it took up too much room.

 

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

That’s a awesome modification of one of those little mini forges! 

I’m always playing with building new forge designs but I use old forge parts an fab new pans, 

it awesome to see someone modifying a cheap an readily available forge an blower to a more usable setup!

personally I prefer a solid leg on my post vises for more stability when doing heavy work and not putting so much stress on the mounting bracket’s but I have seen others setup like yours,

the anvil setup is pretty cool as well, i like your separate hardy an pritchel hole setup,

the anvil is a little light for my taste but if it work for your projects that’s all that counts!

do you have it mounted a knuckle or wrist height?

ive found I like my anvils mounted higher for light work,

[Charlie M]

The forge it's self is pretty good, I'm used to it. I think it is a better design for coke. It's a bit hard to feed coal to come it right, because the hearth is near at 90° to the top of the bowl because of the curvature. I think coal would work better in more of a tapered firepot, like about 45°. I still need to get a hood on it.

See, if I put a leg on it does it touch the ground? Or does it sit a little high with a few wedges under it. Could it chip the bricks on the ground?

The hardy and pritchel work well for tooling, but if it is hot steel going further than 6mm I risk setting fire to the base. I do like being able to cut on it tho. It is very light even with that base the anvil walks around a fair bit. Sadly I have more time than money haha. I would love to get a big one, but with the weather conditions I like being able to lift the anvil back into the shed when I'm done. I've been searching about but no good ones at the minute. I mounted at a knuckle height (believing at the time that was the proper way), tho I have been finding that I am leaning over a bit.

As a joiner by trade, I find that I can hit the piece accurately from standing straight, but I can't half see it haha.

 

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

Yes you typically would mount the vises with the leg secured on the ground,

I build stand alone steel stands for mine that way I can reposition them In The smithy as a need or want,

it is possible that the leg could chip your bricks with heavy work though so you may not want a metal leg on brick, 

you could make a leg just long enough to lock it down on the bottom of your work bench and then have a block of wood under that,

but agin if your not doing any really heavy hammering or twisting heavy steel and the vise is working for what you do then I wouldn’t worry too much about it,