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I Forge Iron

Starting to forge... advice?


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So first of all, any assistance appreciated.

Starting on forging knives. I took a couple of glasses with a bladesmith on a coal forge and am hooked. I have a single burner propane forge that works well, a decent anvil, some hammers and tongs and grinders (both bench and angle). Its the bare minimum but I think it will work.

The first knife I made was a railroad spike knife. As will the next 10 be, since I bought 10 "HC" spikes. Yes, I know they are not the best steel but its what I know and I can play with to get a better idea of how to work steel. I'm sure I could find better 'free' steel and will later.

 

A few questions:

How thick of a piece of steel do you need to forge? I've got some .120 thick pieces from AKS but they look better suited for stock removal not forging. Am I correct or are these prime 'forge blanks'? I'm thinking they would also be easy to slice up for a Damascus build if I ever get there.

If you are forging a blade, do you start with bar stock and forge from that?

Are welders necessary? I know for Damascus you need to be able to hold it together but that is so far down the road it isn't funny. But using a welder to weld on a handle seems a great idea and you don't have to mess with tongs until you get it rough shaped.

I've seen on Amazon some 'bladesmithing tongs' that seem to hold the blade securely but when I went to the local blacksmith/knife making shop, they had never seen them before. What tongs do you all recommend?

lastly, anyone got anything against Ryobi angle grinders?

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Welcome aboard! READ THIS FIRST

I'm not going to hit all your points, just the ones I think I can speak so.

Those HC spikes are HC as far as spikes are concerned, but are still only going to be ~0.3% carbon and therefore aren't going to make knives with a proper edge unless you up the carbon content. Coil/leaf springs will be a much better starting material IMHO. However, it sounds like you're aware of the limitations of your spikes so I wont belabor the point.

I don't make many knives, but the starting material really depends on two things: what I have on hand haha, and the type of knife I'm making. In integral bolster kichen knife ~= a small pocket sized knife with scales.

I wouldn't consider a welder to be necessary, they are certainly handy, but for a lot of things you don't really need one.

I don't know how I feel about buying tongs off Amazon, I mean they may be totally fine, but vise grips or the basic tongs I'll link below can probably get you started until you're able to make your own.

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/53279-bolt-tongs-from-bed-frames/

https://www.iforgeiron.com/index2.html/blueprints/00-series/bp001 easy-to-make-tongs-r1099/

While the Ryobi grinder isn't total junk, I would consider it a low end lighter duty tool. Mine broke after about a year or so. The locking nut seized up and then the button you push on the top to lock the wheel broke. I ended up keeping it for the motor and going with a metabo. So far so good, but as far as longevity that's still TBD.

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Thanks for the response and I will certainly peruse the forums and try to avoid stupid questions.

 

I have visegrips and a v-bit and flat tongs. I can see the limitations on those.

Whats the narrowest/thinnest material you can forge? I was thinking the .126" stuff from AKS is too thin to really forge.

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I'm going to hit up a salvage yard for steel or should I go directly to auto shops? Is there a reason to go with one over the other or is it too situational a question?

 

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The only stupid questions are the ones you're too afraid to ask. No worries, as long as you provide enough info, there are lots of people here who can help.

Box jaw tongs are handy for flat stock, the bed frame tongs could pretty easily be made to hold flat things rather than square. Tongs come in many flavors, I even saw a pair of knifemakers tongs that were pretty cool here the other day... Id have to find where I saw them.. Those are probably something that would take some practice to make though.

I'll let a knifemaker answer your other question since I rarely start with some standard thickness bar. I'm going to guess it probably depends on the shape/size of the knife you're trying to make.

Some shops will let you take some of their scrap stuffs, but not all. If you do find a place, making a few bottle openers or forged items out of recognizable parts as a thank you will get you in their good graces and they may even let you know if they have something you're looking for. It might not hurt to even go there with "gifts". 

The scrapyard will have lots of various things, of course you'll have to pay them their scrap rate, but that's pennies on the dollar compared to new stock. Keys to scrap-stuffs: "In rust we trust", consider the stocks previous application to guess if it's hardenable (if that's what you're looking for), spark test, test quench. 

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Stock size usable for forging: shim stock to six feet sq stock; depending on what you are making.  However for knives the size and type of the blade makes a big difference.  What would be good stock for a filet knife would be difficult to work for a heavy duty camp knife.  You can always practice hammering in your bevels on the 1/8" stock and then stock removal for the rest.  Getting started I would advise going by what Moxon published in 1703 "If a good blade you would win you must forge thick and grind thin." This will allow you to deal with decarb and hammer dings  as you learn the basics of forging. So for stating I would suggest 1/4" stock and up.  What shape you start with depends on you; but as you get skilled you will tend to work stuff closer to finished size just because it's easier...except for steels generally found in rounds which are then worked from that! (Smiths like powered tools to "break down" such stock into more manageable shapes.) OTOH for "cable damascus" you may be forge quite small steel wires---see how the questions get ambiguous?

Arc welders post date Pattern Welding by around 1500 years so it must be possible to do it without them. As I don't have electricity to my shop---yet! I do it that way all the time. Wiring the billets together and using tongs---OR making one of the elements in the billet long enough to serve as a handle.  (I generally start with bandsaw blade and pallet strapping so 25 *thin* layers. A bit trickier to weld but a lot fewer welds to make after the first one. (example: 25,50,100,200,400 vs 3,6,12,24,48,96,192,384).

If you go to a scrapyard be sure you are buying *scrap* and not "car parts"  substantial price differential for the same stuff!  If you make friends with a shade tree mechanic you can often get a lifetimes worth of steel very very fast!  Generally very easy to find more; so curb your scraplust!

Finally Bladesmithing tongs are defined as what style of tongs work best for YOU!  My favorite are a pair of ex farrier tongs, snub nosed and short reined sized to hold 1/4" flat stock.  I did grab another set of modern farrier alligators and ground the ridges down to make a set to hold the blade end more like 1/8 to 1/16". Scrapyard find.

Remember the better skills you get; the less your tools define what you can do!

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FWK:  The problem with forging small stock is that it loses its heat quickly before you can hit it.  You can heat a steel wire to yellow hot and it will be black in the few seconds it takes to move it from the forge to the anvil.  When working very small items I have sometimes set up a propane torch a few inches from the anvil as my heat source and to minimize the heat to blow time.

By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

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Appreciate the responses!

I'm guessing I will have to watch some vids on working with small stock; I've mostly seen folks work from a lump (various sizes and shapes) to a billet to a blade. I've seen almost no work from what amounts to a blank.

 

When working with springs do people usually cut those with an angle grinder or a chop saw?

 

 

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Lot's of coil springs nowadays are powder coated. If you can, try to avoid those... if you can't avoid them I'll usually cut off about as much as I need to use with an angle grinder, then grind off as much of that stuff as humanly possible. I don't know of any better way to remove it. You can burn it off, but not only do the fumes smell awful they are also extremely toxic so I don't recommend doing that.. it's a pain in the butt to grind off, but putting carcinogenic smelly stuff in the forge is a bad plan 

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Good to know Frazer. I knew about galvanized being a bad idea, wasn't aware that coil springs might have something bad also.

What brand/model angle grinder do you use? I bought a new ryobi but it has verbiage in the manual about NOT using it for cutting and when I use a type 27 grinding wheel it fits fine. If I use a 27 cut off, its loose. Some you can turn the lower nut upside down and it will work with a cut-off wheel but on this model it is still loose and wobbly.

 

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Loose and wobbly is NOT a good thing.  Any vibration on a moving shaft can and will get you hurt.  It MUST fit and fit tight.

You can get the metal hot and cut it with a chisel, hot cut hardie, etc.  Cold you can use a hack saw or other cutting instrument designed for cutting.  One hospital visit can more than pay for a proper cutting tool.  Recovery from a injury is seldom a 100 percent recovery. There is always some damage left.  It is not a game you want to play.

 

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hey thanks Glenn, appreciate the input.

 

Yeah I know loose and wobbly is not a good thing... it was never turned on with a cut off wheel and I have no intention of keeping it. I Bought it to sand/grind AND do cut off since i have just basic tools; it is on its way back to HD today and I will get another. Just in case anyone cares, its the Ryobi AG4031G... the drive nut CAN be flipped but the side touching the wheel will not let it sit firmly and the other nut won;t come down far enough. I know I could get a washer or come up with another fix but if they want to make a grinder that can't cut, I won't argue with them... I'll just buy someone else's.

 

I've got two pins in my leg form an accident in 2001. I know full well recovery is rarely 100%; I haven't even taken off the safety features on my bench grinder to make belt changes quicker :)

I have a 10" chop saw but I normally use it for wood and I'm not sure I if I shouldn't replace it before counting on it to saw to cut metal.

Are there better manufacturers of cut off wheels and metal cutting saw blades? I have some diablo cutting wheels

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I'm certainly not disagreeing with Glenn. There is a lot of energy stored in rotating systems and when used improperly abrasive wheels are viable to explode, sending fiberglass shrapnel at a high speed.

I believe all the type 27 means is depressed center. A grinding wheel is for grinding, a cutting wheel is for cutting and not vice versa. Different wheels are reinforced for use in a certain orientation (ie 90 degrees, 45 degrees, etc. to the surface) and so use of a wheel at the wrong angle can increase it's likelihood of failure. 

I had that exact same angle grinder. Like many others, the side of the locking nut that is flat is used for the thin cutting wheels and the side with the protruding ring around the hole in the center is for the thicker grinding wheels. I used it with both grinding and cutting wheels down to 0.40" thickness so I'm not sure what's going on with yours. It does accept both types... Do not use the provided tool to tighten the wheel down. Finger tight is all that should be necessary and inertia on startup will tighten it the rest of the way.

If the wheel is loose in there when the nut is applied do not use it. Check the orientation of the nut, and the arbor size of the wheel compared to your grinder. 

When using a cutoff wheel, or any angle grinder at any time, make sure all guarding is in place and oriented in the proper direction. While you may be tempted to do so, do not align your chest and especially not your face with the wheel while it's spinning. I've had a few wheels explode on me unexpectedly and let me tell you, that shrapnel is no joke. You do not want to be in its path when it's sent into a low Earth orbit.

I'm not trying to scare you, ok maybe I am a little as these tools can be very dangerous when used improperly, you should just be cognizant of the risks and know how to avoid them to reduce your risk of injury.

I don't use an angle grinder as often any more as my hardie generally does the trick, but I still use it to cut off smallish pieces from very long parent stock when needed as well as other grinding and cutting tasks here and there.

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Look into a good grinder to grind things, AND a good cutter to cut things.  Two specific tools that have very different and specific jobs. 

For the grinder, choose your tool to closely match the jobs you do.  They make right angle grinders in different sizes for a reason. A 4-1/2 inch grinder is very different from a 9 inch grinder.  Before you pull the trigger on a 9 inch grinder be sure you have a firm grip, and are wearing a leather apron, and PPE.  It eats metal. 

ALWAYS run a grinder at full speed for a minute or so before putting it against metal.  Who knows what happened to the blade while you had your back turned.  Running at speed while you stand out of the way if the wheel decides to come apart is a safety precaution.  That goes for bench grinders as well.

FWK the site pushes safety.  It is not just you but every reader that needs reminded, today and into the future when they read the thread. 

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I use an old Milwaukee 9"?  got it at the fleamarket for US$40 long ago.  Cuts RR Rail and devalved Oxy tanks, can be worked on, (time for new brushes!).  Tries to break your wrists when you turn it on.

Chopsaws designed for wood will have a short life used for metal.  Not built rigid enough, lower power motors, less dust protection on motors.

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I'm still trying to figure out all the tools I need; hardie is on the list. I'll probably rely upon a 4.5" grinder / cutter with a 27 wheel. I'm still drooling over a 72 inch grinder I can't afford. And my chop saw is a Home Depot cheapie I bought a decade ago; I'm glad I didn't think it would be a good idea without checking.

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Its a Tradesman 10" Compound Mitre Saw; I bought it without caring about a decade before. I do recall it was the cheapest the store carried that was that size and type. Only ever used, and infrequently, for 2x4s and 4x4s; I'll look into it but I'm pretty sure it wasn't designed with steel in mind. For that matter I still have the original blade on it.

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Miter saws are designed to cut wood.  They run at a much higher RPM than a bladed metal cutting saw (sometimes called a dry cut saw) and should never be used to cut steel.  You can also use an abrasive bladed metal cutoff saw to cut your steel.  Be sure of what kind of saw you attempt to cut steel with.

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