George Geist Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 They used to be manufactured by Thoro'bred. Small blocks for swaging race plates. They looked like a hardy tool but had no shank. Were fastened to the anvil by a saddle type hold down device. I know a bunch of you guys know what I'm talking about. Question I have is without violating the site's no advertisement policy can anybody tell me if there is a place that these things can be acquired anymore? I know a fellow that needs some and mine are definitely not for sale. PM me if you prefer. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 I gave it a "what the hey, why not search, different computer, different location maybe different results. I didn't find ANY saddle tools. How much hassle is it to make the things? Might be a good student project if it's not too involved or precision critical. The only bottom tools I remember from when we had our horses shod were straight and curved hardies. Dad made me stay well away and not bother the farrier. <sigh> Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Geist Posted July 16, 2020 Author Share Posted July 16, 2020 Hi Frosty, I suppose they can be made. They were made of H13 I believe. Blocks had beveled edges giving them the shape of a little trapezoid. Nicest thing about them sitting flat on the anvil with no hardy shank was that they could also be fastened to the die of a power hammer. Molds were for various types of swages and half round stock but there were also ones for belt buckles and toe grabs. I'll try to dig some out to post a pic if I can. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 Please, I'd like to see pics, George. I lived under the impression bottom tools had to be firmly connected via shank to the anvil for a long time until I watched someone using an Anvil Devil and then a bolster both just laid on the anvil. You have to be able to strike straight down though. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 I have a couple of stemmed and stemless bottom swages in my tool rack. For what I generally do I prefer the stemmed ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 I have 3 or 4 swages for rim shoes, training plates and race plates. Some are pretty old that I picked up at flea markets.. Kinda neat really as these are designed for production work. The difference between the shoes is the way the swaging is placed for higher outside rim vs inside rim and such.. So depending on the swage it can be used for many types of shoes and even aluminum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 Those are cool. I can imagine using them on bar stock before twisting it, for some funky ornamental work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 For sure.. they make really neat shoes too.. But twisted up would make a really great pattern.. The artist in you is coming through for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Geist Posted July 20, 2020 Author Share Posted July 20, 2020 Hi Frosty, I suppose they can be made. They were made of H13 I believe. Blocks had beveled edges giving them the shape of a little trapezoid. Nicest thing about them sitting flat on the anvil with no hardy shank was that they could also be fastened to the die of a power hammer. Molds were for various types of swages and half round stock but there were also ones for belt buckles and toe grabs. I'll try to dig some out to post a pic if I can. George Some blocks and hold downs from my personal collection. George Not sure why that post copied itself, maybe mods can deal with it. My equipment doesn't normally get allowed to rust like that but those have been packed away for about 30 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 I really like those hold down's. I have some hardy tools that are missing the shank's which I was going to weld some on. Now I will just make a holder and use them as is. Thanks for the picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 I hadn't anticipated they'd be that tall off the anvil. The angles and height make sense though they allow much better angles of "attack." Thanks, George. I'll be making and playing the things in my mental drafting room for a while. hmmmm. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Geist Posted July 20, 2020 Author Share Posted July 20, 2020 It helps a little to set your anvil just a little lower than you normally would because they add a little height. Hold downs let you set them over the center of the anvil. As you guys know horseshoers anvils aren't normally anymore than 125# max with most contemporary ones much lighter. Thus, if they were in a hardy hole the anvil wouldn't have enough stability. Over the meaty part of the anvil you can still whack it pretty hard without it moving as much. Section most often used in them is 1/4x1/2. 9/16 is better for some things but is entirely too hard to find around these parts. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 Sure, they'd add height but I wouldn't be using them like a farrier and could just switch to a heavier hammer to make up for the loss of swing. I'm used to working at different heights and with top tools. I'm pretty sure I can adjust. I forgot to mention the saddle hold down. I can't say I'm so fond of the one shown it has both a saddle AND a hardy shank. I don't rain blows so furiously I'd need both. I'm trying to envision one I can rotate to address the die either across or lengthwise on the anvil. My main every day anvil is 125 lb. Soderfors I bought from a farrier who had to get out of the trade because of knee injuries and a bad back. Ah! my dented brain came up with a saddle holder similar to yours that will hold the dies across or lengthwise! Make the opening for the die a cross. Talk about head slappingly obvious! Leave the shank off ad make the sides stiff enough to keep it in place. My anvil wedges into the stand so if there are stability problems take them to the heavy anvil or leg vise in the corner. Completely different situation of course. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Geist Posted July 20, 2020 Author Share Posted July 20, 2020 Hold down with hardy shank is a store bought one from Thoro'bred. You're right. It is somewhat overkill. A lot of guys cut that part off as it's not really necessary. Some guys also like a real heavy hammer for swaging. In my experience 3 or 3.5 # will suffice. Just be sure it's annealed. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 I do almost everything with less than 2lbs. but I have a couple heavy hammers . . . somewhere. I work hot almost exclusively. A little finish tweaking and planishing is about it for cold. I think I have a length of 2" square somewhere in the resources and it'd be pretty easy to set the band saw to cut the ends. I already have buckets of bottom tools though. Maybe one of the new tool poor guys in the club will be interested. Not having to weld on a shank would make these more doable. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Geist Posted July 21, 2020 Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 On 7/20/2020 at 8:19 PM, Frosty said: Not having to weld on a shank would make these more doable. If you're looking to make some like those I'll dig them back out and measure dimensions, angles etc for you. Although mine were machined, they can be easily enough forged as the nice examples jlp posted. As for ones with a hardy shank, I never ever turn a hardy tool away. Although not everything will fit your hardy hole, everything will definitely fit in your vise. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 It it's not much trouble I'd appreciate it George. Having the dimensions and angles would be good if someone wants to make that type bottom tools. I never know what one of the new guys actually wants, I don't think most do themselves. There is a wild range of anvils so saddle tools can be made to fit and standardize the tools themselves. Everybody can make a saddle to match their anvil and fit any club made bottom tool. I don't know if it'll go anywhere but having it available would be good. I'm with you I never leave a bottom tool on the table if the price is within reason I have yet to meet one that wouldn't fit my swage block. Funny coincident there, all my swage bottom tool shanks fit either anvil but only one bottom fuller fits the larger anvil and I have a lot of fullers. Luck usually goes the other way doesn't it? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 I have seen some bottom tools at Nature Farms in Norman OK, lots of guys building custom tools these days. I find 1/2” round fits the need for 3/4x9/16 well, especially when using bottom swages to make rims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Geist Posted July 24, 2020 Author Share Posted July 24, 2020 On 7/21/2020 at 9:22 PM, Frosty said: It it's not much trouble I'd appreciate it George. Having the dimensions and angles would be good if someone wants to make that type bottom tools. Frosty, It starts out as inch and a half square. Length of base looks like 3.5" top is 2". I cant find my protractor right now but angle can be easily figured out by drawing it on paper using those measurements. Hole in hold down is 1 and 5/8x2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 Thank you George, that's perfect. I deal with dimensions more easily that with angles, I don't have to think about what someone calls the base line and zero point, heck I can use your tape measure and my dividers. It also answers the question I forgot to ask until after I'd hit submit. Where the holder rests on the die and how far the saddle needs to extend below the face. I'll see if I have any 1 1/2" sq. in my stock pile. I know I have 1 1/4" sq, it's leaning on a shop wall. Thanks again, now to see if any of the new guys in the club want bottom tools enough to make one. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Geist Posted July 24, 2020 Author Share Posted July 24, 2020 I'd say if I was looking to forge them I'd be inclined to finish the beveled edges last. Beating something down into it while it's hot to form the mold will undoubtedly booger up the edges a little bit so if you finish them last you'll clean it up real nice. Also being as they're H13 they'll air harden nice for you too. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 That's a good suggestion. I was going to make the end angles when I cut the blanks in the cut off band saw. Deformation of the base while forging is a factor worth considering. I'll keep my eyes open in case. I have mild, might super quench maybe, will have to do. I don't have any H-13 stock laying around so that's for the club if they decide to make enough to justify buying some. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Geist Posted July 24, 2020 Author Share Posted July 24, 2020 On 7/22/2020 at 9:59 AM, Charles R. Stevens said: I have seen some bottom tools at Nature Farms in Norman OK, lots of guys building custom tools these days. I find 1/2” round fits the need for 3/4x9/16 well, especially when using bottom swages to make rims. The Thoro'bred ones I'm posting pictures of, are those the ones you saw in that store Charles? George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmShrader Posted September 23, 2020 Share Posted September 23, 2020 Thoro’bred no longer lists the swages online or on the print catalog. I made my own out of 4x4 block of medium carbon steel. Straightened a section of a kerkhert training plate. Heated the block in the coke until it was about as hot as I’d wanna take and and drove the section into the block under the little giant. Friend of mine cut out the saddle sections on plasma table and I welded it up and used screen door springs as hold down. I was still at the old shop between shepherdstown & harpers ferry back then so I still had pretty much all my big boy toys back the,25lb little giant, Side draft forge, might have had the small railroad flypress back together then and the hydraulic press with electric pump. I’d give just about anything to be back on my little farm but there was a different path chosen for me lol George if your interested I might have some half round swages packed away with the stuff I bought from a retired old timer who was a standardbred/trotter horseshoer down on the shore back in the day. If I can find that couple boxes of stuff you can have it brother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Geist Posted September 23, 2020 Author Share Posted September 23, 2020 Cool, I'd be interested. You still have fire pots for sale? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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