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I Forge Iron

Brown Gas forges


Willem

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Frosty that was definitely a newbie error. I just joined this forum and have read the etiquette thread since posting. Btw, you have been quite a contributor here and a wealth of information. 

The guy with the mustang actually had and experimental fuel system that did NOT use any any alternative fuels. I suspect that they had to reflash the program in the ecu as well as replace the hardware. A good portion of fuel is designed to be burned in the catalytic converter these days. They engineer additives to help fuel molecules not vaporize and thus not burn as effectively. The HHO gas just increases the rate of explosion in the combustion chamber thus allowing us to burn more of the fuel in the engine. Note: timing must be retarded due to the speed of the explosion. This results in extremely quiet idles as a side. 

To get back to the topic of the use of HHO in forging, it would be quite expensive to build a quality generator that is efficient and produces enough gas to run a pressurized burner system. A tiny jewelry torch is one thing, getting a much larger mass of steel to a heat thats workable would require quite a large output of gas. Having built a few generators my opinion would be run on propane and if you have $ for a bunch of stainless sheet later it would be real neat to see a HHO powered forge....electricity is a cost so it won't be free energy. 

Also, in the spirit of safety HHO is HIGHLY EXPLOSIVE and large volumes would be dangerous. I have experience with HHO and doubt I would want to be around a forge system based on it.

 

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Latticino, I have given forge doors some thought in passing as I use the poor mans forge door (just a couple firebricks). My initial thought would be to caste a hook and mesh into some refractory much like is done with concrete pads. This way the hook would have something to attach to that would "bite" into the refractory while also giving the refractory some additional rigidity. I've had a number of firebricks break from dropping them much to my distress. I'll look into prototyping something once I build my new forge. (waiting on a 220 circuit to be reinstalled into the barn). As I'm thinking about it, is there a way to amplify the stroke distance of a foot petal so that if it moves a linear 4 inches it can pull the wire attached to the forge door 8 inches? In all honesty I'm not that familiar with pulley systems or classical mechanics. 

When you reference burner design to fit the size of space are referring to the size of the burner? All the ribbon burners I've looked at have the same fundamental design however the number of orifices are scaled to meet the size of the space heated. In which case I'm using a 6"x3" burner which to my understanding should be about right for a 20# propane tank forge. I've also seen someone who has managed to create a narb burner that runs of 1/2 psi. His video of doing it all wasn't the most refined so I plan to reach out to him (its on youtube) and see if he has any updates on how it works. He actually retrofitted a multi-port burner to be na which is interesting because it circumvented (for good or for bad) Frosty's method of feeding the GA mixture perpendicular to the burner holes. I think the question is how hot can it get at 1/2 psi because he didn't show the forge at temp.

1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said:

Compressed HHO; just the though give me a cold shiver.  I wonder at what pressure it exothermically combines on it's own?

I'll let someone else do the leg work there... ;)

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I wasn't dinging you, David, it is a common newbie mistake and I like to try to help folk stay off admin's radar.  The site's OS has quite a learning curve and it changes often without warning to us or admin so we're always on the learning curve. Keeps us on our toes.

Internal combustion  engines must run rich for heat reasons. It's easy to adjust a carb to a neutral burn and listen to the engine burn up. Diesel mechanics used to call a properly adjusted injection system's exhaust an "Economy haze" the right amount of unburned fuel in the exhaust. 

If you look at the temperature of gasoline, diesel, alcohol, etc. in a stoichiometric ratio the coolest far exceeds the melting temp of anything in a modern engine.

It's not a plot by the oil companies to wring as much out of us as possible, it's material science and cost of construction. Sure there are materials that can withstand much higher temps than cast iron, steel and aluminum but can you imagine what inconel cylinders and titanium pistons would cost in materials and manufacture?

Modern engines are more economical,  but not because of better fuel injection systems, superchargers, computer controls, etc. the main "secret" (SHHHH!:o) is better cooling Modern coolants in higher pressure systems allow engines to run well at higher temps without boiling, liquid cools  more effectively than steam. Lighter weight oil at a higher flow rate is a significant factor as well. Modern cooling systems operate in the 220 f. range maybe higher, that's why it's such a GOOD idea to take the do not open when hot warning on the reservoir cap seriously. Break the seal and it WILL blast you with boiling coolant and the coolant raises the boiling temp considerably. Think major scalding injuries.:o

Octane is a measurement of the rate of propagation of a fuel blend, the higher the octane the slower it burns. This is necessary to prevent shock and thermal damage, the higher the compression the higher the necessary octane rating. Most of this was covered in Auto shop 1 in high school but I don't know if schools even have auto shop anymore. Again, additives in the fuel is not to wring more money out of us, it's the reality of current material science. Affordable metals and manufacture require lower explosive velocity and temperature. 

A hydrogen injection system improves economy because it has a much higher rate of propagation for the same volume/mass. The problem is it has a much faster and hotter flame front but it replaces enough power fuel so that the unburned heat scavenging fuel needed to keep the engine from melting or burning up is made up for by the higher energy output. No  matter what, it takes more energy in electricity to generate hydrogen than the energy it CAN return in use. It's basic physics in this universe.

HHO is even worse, it's literally running an internal combustion engine on hydrogen, oxygen! Liquid fuel rocket folks call it Hydrox fuel Take a look at the difference in temperature between a stoichiometric Hydrogen Air (HAIR :lol:) flame and a  Hydrogen Oxy flame HydrOx the almost 70% nitrogen in the atmosphere carries off a huge % of the temp of the flame. 

There are very good reasons an engine can't run solely on HHO, we don't have a material that would survive the explosive combustion and shock. Heck, I bet the exhaust wouldn't even survive. Sure its steam but at what temp?

A couple few decades ago a company, maybe Australian I don't recall, developed a one piece, ceramic, internal combustion engine. No cooling system, no lubricating oil. The only metal in the engine were springs where they couldn't eliminate them. It wasn't until recently I realized how they made a single piece device with so many internal moving parts. 3D printed is my assumption. The test engines were darned small, IIRC in the range of 70 CID, under 100 lbs. and developed crazy power, again IIRC in excess of 200 BHP for again crazy mileage, 50-75 mpg. 

The company was running a campaign to get a manufacturer to build and use their engine. I saw it on one of the future tech shows and on multiple news programs I believe they sold the patents for a handsome price and it's never been heard of again. That one I can lay on the Big 3 for shelving. Not sure why but it's never been heard of again.

I'm wondering if the ceramics weren't high zirconai and laser printed to achieve vitrification. Withstanding 6,000f. without softening and explosive shocks far exceeding steel and iron let alone aluminum for about 10% the weight sure sounds like a possibility to me. 

Another issue of HHO is storage. It's physically impossible to power the reactor to generate HHO on it's own output let alone move a vehicle. While it IS possible to generate enough to include in an engine's fuel it can't add up to more power out than in. A self generating system MUST operate a net loss.

So, let's assume you live near Willem and are on a Grand Coulee Dam, power grid and can afford to run the reactor and make enough HHO to use as fuel. Let's also assume you have an engine that can withstand the heat and pressure of explosive Hydrox combustion. How do you carry enough to get you to work and back? 

As Thomas has already said, I don't know at what pressure HHO will recombine into water and release the energy that was going to let you commute to work and back for a week in a millisecond or two. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

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Just a note of caution. What psi he is running at may not relate to how much fuel you are using at the same psi now. If you are using a much smaller diameter gas jet, your psi will have to be larger for the same gas flow. (From thermodynamics to fluid dynamics, I love this forum...)

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Of  course out here you would go solar; high initial cost and be sure you insure against hail damage! I know a person in my church that was bragging that their hybrid had only cost US$100 in gas for the last two years as her Solar panels charge it.  (Of course the cost of those panels would pay for my estimated gas costs for about double my expect lifespan at this point.)

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2 hours ago, Willem said:

. This way the hook would have something to attach to that would "bite" into the refractory while also giving the refractory some additional rigidity. I've had a number of firebricks break from dropping them much to my distress.

Chicken wire, etc. were once popularly thought to be a help against  refratory fragility; they only made it worse, by providing endless starting points for cracks. It's very simple; metals expand more than refractories do under heat. Therefore exterior metal shells expand away from refractory surfaces. Interior metals expand against refractory surfaces.

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2 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

Therefore exterior metal shells expand away from refractory surfaces.

So it would be optimal to encase all sides of the refractory that aren't facing the forge in a sheet metal box or angle iron frame and then attach a hook from there?

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Sheet metal or not; that is the question. so long as it's nobler in the mind not to weld those sheets in place... all is well either way :)

Honestly, sheet or only angles is a personal preference in a home shop. In a commercial shop, you need protection from idiots.

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