Military veterans?

[TRLDaD]

USCG '84 - '88

Semper Paratus

[George N. M.]

It seems to me that there is a higher proportion of vets on IFI than the general population.  And it seems there are more USCG vets than I would have thought.  There's probably  Master's thesis or a PhD dissertation in there somewhere.  Something to do with being willing to serve and working with your hands.

GNM

LTC(R) US Army 

late of 1/C/1/12 Cav 1st Cav Div (airmobile) Republic of Viet Nam 1970-71

[Frosty]

If I haven't welcomed you aboard already, I'll (hopefully) correct them mistake. Welcome aboard TRLDaD, glad to have you. Thank you for serving, you're one of the reasons we have the lives we have. 

Ahhh, I see your other posts, I'll yak at you more, there.

You know George, I'm pretty sure the forum is loaded with potential doctorial theses, dissertations, etc. But can you imagine the mental state it would require to collect the data and turn it int one? Heck you'd need to replace the quote key on your keyboard. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[George N. M.]

Possib ly in the study area of abnormal psychology.  Although, seriously, online communitys and fora could bea fertile area in sociology.

[Frosty]

It's been my inexpert observation that any gathering of more than 3-4 people is a fertile field for sociologists. My mind is boggled by the very thought of what a sociologist's forum would be like for scope of abnormality!

Frosty The Lucky.

[BillyBones]

Oh good grief another coasty? 

Just funnin' ya, welcome aboard. 

I think there are a lot vets that take up the hobby not becuase of working with tools but the self reliance aspect. Yes we love tools, yes we love working with our hands, yes we love creating things, but why smithing and not carpentry? How many times when still in have we found ourselves relying on ourselves. When all we had was our wits and our training? You were expected to do a job even if you were the last man left. And sometimes to get out of sticky situations we had "make a tool, to make a tool", self reliance. So it comes as just kind of second nature to want that. 

Then there is also the controlled chaos as well. For anyone who does not know i was on an Abrams tank. There were times it got crazy inside the turret. You had to move fast and be precise in your movements. No matter the chaos going on around, you learned how to move with haste but not to rush. Now think about forge welding. The steel is sparkling, you are on fire, but you move quickly and do not rush. Hit with precision and successfully complete the mission. "Yes i know i am on fire, i will put it out when i finish this weld" we have all heard that to i suspect, controlled chaos. 

I hope that makes sense, it is 4:30 in the AM here so i may be kind of rambling a bit. 

[George N. M.]

There is also the aspect of having the mind set that you will need tools in situations in the field.  In Viet Nam, as an Infantry Platoon Leader, I carried IIRC a pair of needle nose pliers, a small file, and a sort of folding tool kit similar to a swiss army knife.  This was 1970-71 and multi tools, e.g. Leatherman, were not a thing yet.  They got used surprisingly often on our personal equipment and weapons.

Similarly, I carried small containers of spices, etc. to jazz up my C-rations.

My late wife, Martha, was a firm believer in being prepared and carried things like multi tools, a tea making kit, small first aid kit, sewing kit, etc. in her purse.  At church when someone needed something to fix something it was always said, "Ask Martha if she has it in her purse."  And she did surprisingly often.  I still carry one of her small multi tools in my pocket.

I think this sort of be prepared for situations that may arise mind set is commoner in veterans and blacksmiths than in the general population.

GNM

[mnidoone]

Michael Nidoone SSG, currently serving in the Army for hopefully another 10 years.

Have served at the 101st, 4th ID, in 1-29 IN battalion at Fort Benning (moore) and am currently back in the 101st. 

I actually got introduced to blacksmithing through an amazing non profit founded by a few retired service members, called Healing Flames Forge. When I'm not there, I'm at work, when I'm not at work I'm with my family, and past that I'm building my backyard forge.

[George N. M.]

My sense is that there is a higher percentage of military veterans on IFI than in the general population.  There is probably a psychological or sociological thesis or dissertation in that fact as to why folk who serve are more likely to be or become "makers" of any sort.

I will say that blacksmithing is good therapy for stress whether or not military related.

Anyway, as I've said before, glad to have you.

GNM, 

LTC, US Army (ret)

[mnidoone]

Just some thoughts about it I've had 

1) military requires alot of dedication, hardwork, patience and a few precise acts of violence. Similarly blacksmithing also does.

2) blacksmithing is an art where you express yourself through very strong physical actions (comparatively to most other art)

3) the military hardens men and women to seek out those much stronger but smaller communities that provide real life insight. Not just a best friend to say you did good then talk bad behind your back. They are more the talk bad to your face and good behind your back. Similarly to much of the Blacksmithing community. 

4) it is a phenomenal stress reliever and as the ages go on the OPTEMPO of the military gets rougher, and people in the military are actively looking for outlets. Blacksmithing is one of those few with a relatively low OVERALL expense rate compared to how much you can do. 

 

Those are my thoughts as to why military fall into blacksmithing so much. Have literally 0 data to support this. Just things that made sense to me.

[George N. M.]

Quite a bit of that makes sense.  Hard to quantify though.

Although I got into blacksmithing about 7 years after I got back from Viet Nam I will say that it has helped me psychologically with anything left over from VN as well as other rough times in my life since.  As I have said before, blacksmithing has helped with the tough times and made the good times better.

I do think that making things, blacksmithing, woodworking, cooking, sewing, spinning, weaving, gardening, etc. is good for overall psychological health.  It is really satisfying to hold something and know that it did not exist before you put your mind and hand to it.  I think that if more folk did things like this there would be less need for mental health professionals.  Also, blacksmithing is a ind of minor immortality, the things I make will exist long after I am gone.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Frosty]

Pretty good insights but smithing holds something more important for folks who suffer high stress jobs, PTSD sufferers, etc. This is of course just my opinion, have salt ready.

It's been my observation the PTSD sufferers I've known worry most about the loss of control over things. First military training has to suppress a person's individuality for instant obedience to orders, etc. etc. A loss of self control. Combat is a world out of your control and so on. Once it becomes ingrained it effects everything. 

While most of your points above are not wrong I don't believe they're why blacksmithing is so valuable to folk suffering issues like PTSD. They're about control and blacksmithing is less about strength than it is about hammer control.

To control the steel you have to control heat, placement and hammer. To do that you have to zone out on the task lose the distractions around you, plans, regrets, everything. You compartmentalize everything but the things necessary to make a nail, spread cross, etc. 

Blacksmithing is a form of meditation, without it a person can't be more than okay at it. It's also a meditative state you can return to every time you see your project and better yet you can enter the zone looking at other people's work. Just ask yourself, "How would I do that?" and you're there.

We have lots of vets in our club and many are there for the therapy of steel. Once I realized what was going on I changed my training technique to encourage and highlight the control aspect. If you can't control your person it's nearly impossible to control the steel. 

Of course that's just my thinking I could be wrong.

Frosty The Lucky.

[mnidoone]

I think at the very least we all have a good facet of the truth because theres nothing in your statement i disagree with either. Getting into this work has been enormous for me. Got me off the computer and has helped keep me from the drinks. 

[BillyBones]

Welcome aboard. 

I did a couple stints with the 3rd ID in Germany and the 1st Cav in Tx. 19K, M1 tanker. I got out before retirement becuase of the politics. 

I think there are several reasons as to why we do this. Order from chaos, attention to detail, strict discipline, etc. 

Smithing has also one other thing in common with the which i think comes more into play than many other things. In the military one thing that was driven into my head : Adapt, improvise, overcome. 

[Nobody Special]

I thought the PTSD went away when I started sleeping again about eight months after I got back and I didn't get angry in such a hurry anymore. Whoops. Took a few years of hard drinking to figure out it was still hanging around, p.s. not a great cure. Not saying it wasn't fun trying but would not mash like or subscribe.

Army then the Guard, 99 to present, nine in the big Army and 15-ish of it full time. Several of the 35 series (shhh), Leonard Wood, DLI, Goodfellow, Ft. Huachuca a couple of times, S. Korea, Hood (yuck), Eustis for 1-day (they later wrongly reported me AWOL), Little Creek (do NOT eat at the squids' nasty, filthy chow hall!!!), Jackson, Camp Williams twice, JBLM w a side-trip to al-Anbar from 07 to 08 (bloody surge), Ft. Gillem, Clay NGC, and JBLM again the last few years. E-7 and avoiding E-8 like the plague. Perfer et obdura.

[Reindeer Forge]

I'm just starting in blacksmithing, taking basic classes at Chicago Ave Fire Arts Center in Minneapolis, a tool making class at North House Folk School in Grand Marais, MN, and I've done a number of art welding and metal fabrication classes through the community ed program at the local tech college. 

I enlisted in the WI Army National Guard on Friday, April 13, 2001. I was a 92Y (unit supply/armorer) in a Combat Engineer Battalion (wheeled). My last name is Riederer (Reed-er-er). I went through Basic Training as "Private Reindeer" - hence the user name. I'm thinking about using it as the business name if I can start to sell products.  

I was halfway through spring semester of my Junior year in college when I got a phone call during mid-terms week, telling me to report for active duty in 10 days. I lined up outside the registrars office at 7:45 the next morning along with dozens of other reservists, and dropped 18 credits of classes I was acing. My unit mobilized through Ft. McCoy, WI in March 2003. We hit Camp Virginia, Kuwait in May. On my 21st birthday in early June I rode into Iraq behind a machinegun. At the end of the road, right before we turned onto Tallil AB, these Arab guys were yelling "Mister, Mister... Whiskey... Ice... Beer!!!"  But we couldn't stop!!!! That isthe kind of stuff that gives a guy from Wisconsin PTSD... screw the mortars and the IEDs. 

I got out of the Guard in 2007, I did two years with an Army Reserve unit rather than get yanked back from the IRR for another deployment. Got out in 2009 as a newlywed, rather than go to Afghanistan. 

Now I'm divorced and working for the Army Corps of Engineers as a civilian. I'm learning to pound metal to stay sane and release some creative energy. 

[George N. M.]

Welcome aboard from 7500' in SE Wyoming.  Glad to have you.

As you can tell, there seem to be a higher percentage of veterans on IFI than in the general population.  We've got all the wars from Viet Nam on and all branches of the military covered.

Yes, blacksmithing is great therapy for whatever ails you.  I've been at it since 1977 and it has helped me through the rough times and made the good times better.  I recommend it for most everyone.

George

LTC, US Army (Ret)

late of 1/C/1/12 Cav, 1 Cav Div (Air mobile), Republic of Viet Nam, 1970-71

[LarryFahnoe]

Welcome Reindeer, sounds like you may be located near Mpls/St Paul & even if you're some distance away, another local blacksmithing group to be aware of is The Guild of Metalsmiths https://www.metalsmith.org/ 

I've also taken classes at North House & before Heather and Pam got the fire arts center going, they were teaching at MCTC where I took some welding classes from them. The guild also operates the blacksmith shop located in the Jackson St Roundhouse, an old BN facility which has lots of neat stuff to explore.

--Larry

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Reindeer, thanks for serving, glad to have you. If you put your general location in the header you'll have a much better chance of meeting up with members living within visiting distance. Telling us once won't stick in our memories after we open another post.

Our club has quite a few vets, many are enjoying the therapeutic properties of anvil time. Getting into the zone can be very Zen. 

What do you want to make or do you have an ultimate goal? 

We love pics, work, shop, tools and equipment, pets, scenery, anything you'd show a child without having to explain adult stuff.

Frosty The Lucky.

[BillyBones]

Reindeer, welcome aboard. 

My dad was a combat engineer in Vietnam. He was a heavy equipment operator, later went artillery.

I chose the route of my granddad and road a tank around the ME.  

The Bedouins used to come running up to our tanks wanting food and water when i was there. We had one guy come looking for medical attention for his wife. While one of our guys was bandaging up her foot the husband tried to give me and a couple other guys his daughter. Not to "use" but the take back to the states with us. 

It is kind of odd but being in a war is both some of the best memories of my life and some of the worst. 

[George N. M.]

"It is kind of odd but being in a war is both some of the best memories of my life and some of the worst. "

Billy, truer words were never spoken/written.  The other odd thing is how fresh the good and bad memories remain.  Some of my memories of Viet Nam feel like they are only a couple of years old when, in reality, they have been in my head for over half a century.  And memories of smells and tastes remain very clear.  The memory of the taste of C rations or LRP rations (Long Range Patrol rations, freeze dried) is like something I ate a few days ago.

GNM