MYX Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 Hey folks, Two somewhat unrelated questions... So, I have been forging for a couple of weeks now. I noticed the accumulation of... stuff on the bottom of the forge. It's a white ash (and scale obviously). My question is... is this normal? Is the dust toxic (any more so than normal dust) and is cleaning out the forge a helpful thing, or does it even matter? Given that there is already warnings about ceramic wool (which yes, I have rigidized and covered with refractory) I figured I should ask as I don't know what I don't know and don't wanna get hurt. I have been wearing a respirator mask thing while doing a lot of the forging, but perhaps this is overkill, but, I am an asthmatic already, I don't want to hose myself. Also having been cooking some metal for a couple of weeks I have noticed that the color has gone from it's pristine white to a smudgy tan(ish) color. Do you ever reapply Metrikote or was the initial coating sufficient? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
671jungle Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 I would try to NOT breath refractory dust as some refractories contain some harmful ingredients. Heck, I would not want anything foreign in my lungs if I could help it. I turn my forge over and give it couple taps to get the debris out. You could spray it out with a hose to avoid the dusting but be sure to dry it out thoroughly before firing at full temp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 Hose it out with WATER?! I'm at a complete loss. When residue on my forge floor starts becoming a problem I scrape it while it's at high yellow heat. Old flux is sticky gooey so it brings the other stuff with it. Don't get excited about keeping a propane forge real clean it's rarely a problem. The liner will discolor with use and that's not an issue either, there's no telling what might happen when you expose . . . stuff to temps that high. Steels have different metals in them, even low alloy steels and no telling what traces are in 100 yro wrought iron. Heck it might be a big old stink bug crawled in because it was warm, fell asleep just before you lit it up. Take care of your lungs before the forge. You ARE being careful of CO, the monitor/alarm has a fresh battery and is mounted about head high. Right? I'm not a doctor nor do I pretend to be on TV but wear a GOOD dust mask. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
671jungle Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 :) well, I’ve never hosed mine out, and I’ll never do it while at full temp! but it sits out in the weather, and has all summer. Seems fine. Isn’t it just like concrete? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 It probably isn't as bad an idea as it sounds and no I didn't think you were suggesting hosing it out at heat. That would be spectacular in a 3 stooges sort of way. Kastolite is like concrete in the way it sets and cures chemistry wise, other than that I can't say. I left my old 1st. T burner propane forge outdoors too, I lived in a trailer court and it didn't really have a place to live out of the weather. It didn't suffer from it. I thought of an obvious anti dust measure, a real head slapper. Use a shop vac after it's cooled. Wiping it out with a damp cloth would probably be okay too. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Rotblatt Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 On 11/8/2019 at 1:17 PM, MYX said: It's a white ash Little bell went off in my head, hope I'm wrong...are you making sure the metal you are forging is not galvanized? It burns and leaves a white ash (zinc oxide). I assume it's something else, but....just to be careful I thought I'd mention it. Most of the crap that accumulates in my forge is black, melted and/or glass like. In a new forge sometimes if you have a IFB as the floor it will get scraped up and there will be tan powder. DanR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MYX Posted November 13, 2019 Author Share Posted November 13, 2019 On 11/9/2019 at 10:13 PM, Frosty said: Take care of your lungs before the forge. You ARE being careful of CO, the monitor/alarm has a fresh battery and is mounted about head high. Right? I'm not a doctor nor do I pretend to be on TV but wear a GOOD dust mask. Heh... no, I have never hosed it out. I can take a photo... Actually that what I will do next time I light it. My forge tips backwards (by design) so that when I shut it off, it lets the hot just chimney out vs. wanting to head out the burner tube. It's the dust that falls out that I am asking about. I just saw this photo. You can... sort of see the dust on the table. The forge is lit on my driveway about 3 feet from my garage, so no, I have not yet used a CO monitor, but I will get one. I figured that I was getting enough air given the surroundings, but you guys are the education, so I will do it if you feel it's a concern. On 11/12/2019 at 11:42 AM, D.Rotblatt said: Little bell went off in my head, hope I'm wrong...are you making sure the metal you are forging is not galvanized? It burns and leaves a white ash (zinc oxide). I assume it's something else, but....just to be careful I thought I'd mention it. Most of the crap that accumulates in my forge is black, melted and/or glass like. In a new forge sometimes if you have a IFB as the floor it will get scraped up and there will be tan powder. It's all hot rolled steel so far. For the tube that the burner sits in... that was galvanized. But it sat in some high strength vinegar for nearly a week and neutralized and scrubbed afterwards. I have read here that this was acceptable. Because you know... I read it on the internet, so it has to be true, right? Actually I think that one might have been Frosty though. ;0) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Rotblatt Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 Hey! It's a furnace as well! DanR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 2 hours ago, MYX said: Because you know... I read it on the internet, so it has to be true, right? You are SOOOO going to fit in here. The Matrikote may not have been hot enough long enough to fire completely. Did you apply a number of THIN coats or one heavy one? Yes, you can apply more layers. clean any loose powder, etc. off it with a damp cloth and apply the Matrikote in THIN layers. Allow to dry before applying another THIN layer. It turns tan after use, nothing to worry about. Something just occurred to me while envisioning the pic of your forge on end. It's cooling down more quickly than most forges due to a rather large scale chimney effect. Any surface textures, roughness for example, will be cooling down and shrinking more quickly compared to the main surface of the liner. It could just be popping off due to different shrinkage due to different cooling rates and not being completely fired. Thinking along those lines, next time you fire it up let it get as hot as possible and hold it there for an hour or two then shut it off, close the doors and plug the burner with kaowool or aluminum foil so heat doesn't cook your burner. I'm thinking that letting the liner fire like ceramics with the long cool down to temper might take care of it shedding powder. That is just a guess and if it works, YAY! If not, DRATS back to the brainstorm. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MYX Posted November 13, 2019 Author Share Posted November 13, 2019 19 hours ago, Frosty said: You are SOOOO going to fit in here. Thanks. I didn't post much until I got things up, running, and got some time on it as I saw some frustration from the League of Curmudgeon for being asked the same things too many times. I tried to read everything I could... some days leading to some mass frustration as there's too many conflicting answers on here. But eventually things click and I moved onto the next puzzle. 19 hours ago, Frosty said: The Matrikote may not have been hot enough long enough to fire completely. Did you apply a number of THIN coats or one heavy one? Yes, you can apply more layers. clean any loose powder, etc. off it with a damp cloth and apply the Matrikote in THIN layers. Allow to dry before applying another THIN layer. It turns tan after use, nothing to worry about. Matrikote was done in a single layer, but I still have quite a lot left. It went much further than I thought it would. As to the forge cooling too quickly... textures popping off... I hadn't considered this. I can see several places that look almost smooth. So, you might be onto something there. I though I was being crafty. I was trying to protect the burner. 19 hours ago, Frosty said: Thinking along those lines, next time you fire it up let it get as hot as possible and hold it there for an hour or two then shut it off, close the doors and plug the burner with kaowool or aluminum foil so heat doesn't cook your burner. So... blocking off the burner... 1. with kaowool. Given the breathing risks, is it okay to be playing with the stuff when cold? I still have some, but I have it in a heavy duty garbage bag to keep the dust contained. I thought one really didn't want that stuff sitting around or played with if you could avoid it. More, if you stuff it into the burner, small pieces and wool dust will be breaking off, which eventually will be fired once the forge is re-lit, meaning that the melting issue comes into play, no? 2. Regardless of if I use the aluminum or wool, do I just just wad up a ball of the stuff and stick it in the T inlet of the burner? Part B. and totally unrelated, (though related)... I have seen it said to shove some kaowool around the burner tube in the containing tube that leads into the forge. This way less air is able to enter, possibly reducing the amount of scale. So, similar question... Do I put the wool in, and rigidize just in that area. There's not a lot of space in there, but I will do it if it helps. I have seen that most of my stuff is looking very textured from the flaking scale. I have been trying to keep the anvil clean of it as to not embed it into the metal while hot, but the stuff that flakes off, leaves a lot of patterns of scale behind it as it doesn't come off in even layers or areas. To that same point, if I am to keep the forge level and not tipped back, I need to deal with this area in between the containing tube and burner tube to the hot air doesn't chimney out that area even though the burner might be sealed off with the wool or aluminum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 4 hours ago, MYX said: I tried to read everything I could... some days leading to some mass frustration as there's too many conflicting answers on here. That is because everyone has their opinion and respects the opinion of others, as long as that opinion is not dangerous or will get someone hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MYX Posted November 14, 2019 Author Share Posted November 14, 2019 2 hours ago, Glenn said: That is because everyone has their opinion and respects the opinion of others, as long as that opinion is not dangerous or will get someone hurt. Completely understood. It's why I kept reading. Things like needing to rigidize or not to. I finally decided to because there was more on the side of doing it. I thought of it as a sort of insurance policy. But as a person new to this, and understanding that we are dealing with things that can bring metal objects to the temperature of the sun... I jest, but it's serious stuff and I am treating it with a lot of respect. I want to do it right, and I don't know what I don't know. I have learned SO MUCH since the forge has been lit that one can not learn in reading or videos. I am so... intrigued how to mush metal into some form of form (that's somewhat recognizable by humans). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 Most of us curmudgeons are older and some have health issues like diabetes or and TBI, stoke, etc. we have our grouchy days and kids tend to just ask questions without looking at all and some argue with the answers. It can set me off, I try not to engage them but I have my days. Believe me, we appreciate you guys who try to winkle out the answers before asking and yeah, the site is a jumble of random opinions from folk who don't have a clue so it's really confusing for folk without a handle on things. I hate to discourage folk from trying to help others but I sure wish they'd read the Dunning Kruger papers and bear it in mind before they jump in. We only really take issue if advice or ideas are dangerous. My thoughts on Matrikote, texture and rapid cooling differentials causing it to make the dust are just WAGs on my part. It's a thought that came to me while I was writing something else. It fits with maybe not being sufficiently fire cured though so it was worth mentioning. Kaowool particles shouldn't be breathed for sure I should've thought of something else. The idea is to prevent the chimney effect by blocking the convection flow, choking it off. A T is easy to choke by wrapping aluminum foil around the air ports. Fiberglass insulation works stuffed in the air ports too. The important thing is the choke isn't flammable. I don't worry about how hot my burners get because I use copper tubing for the final supply lines rather than rubber propane hose. Most of my forges have multiple burners and I run the hose to a distribution manifold through 1/4 turn ball valves and copper tubing from there to the burners. Remember though, that's MY set ups, not yours. I don't talk about what psi my forges run under, it's not relevant to your burners, there are too many variables. For instance, your elevation makes a difference. Variables and what works is largely the answer to your Part B. Some burners benefit from fitting tightly in the forge shell, some benefit from additional combustion air drawn in through a gap. I tune my burner so they work best without additional air around the burner's output nozzle. Mine also work best IN a forge rather than in free air. If steel or iron forms scale IN your forge the burner is running lean (oxidizing flame) you need to tweak the tune. Scale WILL form on hot steel in open air, chemical reactions like oxidization are accelerated with temperature so orange or yellow hot steel scales visibly, if it's sparking the speed of oxidization has risen to Iron/carbon levels of flames. A cutting torch is a more extreme example of iron literally burning, the heat that cuts the steel is generated by introducing a jet of oxy which causes the steel to burn exothermically/ rapidly the flame you see if the iron burning like a torch. Yes? You're going to get iron scale in your forge, on the anvil, anvil stand, floor, your pants and painfully the web of your thumbs. It's no big deal, it's like getting flour an everything in the kitchen when you bake bread. If it gets so bad it starts to interfere in the forge scrape it out when the forge is HOT, at one time I had a scraper that looked like a hoe but I don't use that much flux welding. The flux, scale and stuff was forming a gooey puddle in the forge so I cleaned out when it got in the way. I have a butcher block brush that lives on the anvil stand. I brush the steel before before hammering and the anvil while the steel is taking a heat. You'll get some scale embedded in the work or you'd be spending all your time brushing rather than forging. Scale forms FAST. Some folk wet the anvil and hammer faces, the steam pops the scale off. I don't have experience doing this but I believe the people who do, they're good smiths I have no reason not to. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 It is possible to have more than one of the mentioned health issues at the same time. Some folks carry one or the other of them to the extreme. (Excuse me a moment I have to have my cybernetic mock pancreas inject more insulin...) But we are the lucky ones. Most of us have had friends walk that darkling road that we are only looking down... I remember writing a post on how to evaluate posts in an area you have little to no background in. (Credentials, experience, dogpiling,...) turns out "likes" is not a good method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merle Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 Hello , iam making a two burner propane forge lined with 3 " ceramic fire brick , Do i need to coat the brick with something ? will they damage my lungs ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 Yes, No, Maybe; as you didn't include any information on what type of ceramic fire brick you are using. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merle Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 k26 thermal ceramics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 Welcome aboard merle, have you read this yet? READ THIS FIRST It will help you get the best out of the forum with helpful hints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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