My First Attempt (Picture Heavy)

[North State]

33 minutes ago, arkie said:

...and the blower is OK, try to take it out and save it before the salvage guy at the repair place gets his hands on it. 

Good call! I already told my installer I was gonna scrap the old unit myself. I'm gonna snatch the squirrel cage and the heat strips from the attic and the fan motor from outside.anything else worth while? 

And as always, thanks for the advice, Mikey. I think i like the .5" thickness too. Now, once i get the refractory in, how does it respond to having the semi-soft inswool behind it? Seems pretty susceptible to cracking.

[Mikey98118]

Once fired the ceramic fiber blanket becomes rigid; it has little strength against a poke from a sharp object, but will do a great job of cradling the cast refractory layer, once you fire it too.

[North State]

Ok I lit the forge off for a few minutes tonight. Fairly pleased with things. Compared to before, the shell was hotish. Not as hot as before, when I had just the solid refractory in there. I could leave my hand on the outside without burning myself this time. I didnt run it as long as before either, but I guess thats still progress. I will try to add the refractory this week. Maybe I will gain some efficiency then. As for outside shell temps, how hot are your forges on the outside under normal conditions? Since I have little to reference. Pics to come...

[Mikey98118]

That varies, but generally speaking the steel shell should not get much hotter than 400 F (spit will bounce off of it) when the interior is yellow-white.

[Frosty]

I'm always telling folk to "butter" the kaowool before applying rigidizer or refractory as putting it on dry stuff makes for poor bonding. There's a longer better explanation if you like, say the word. Using enough yellow food coloring as a marker in your rigidizer to make it look like a butter tube looked like a friendly jab to me. I'm sooooo disappointed sniff.

The water setting hard refractory is pretty strong if it's reasonably well supported. Rigidized ceramic blanket has proven to support the 1/2" of Kastolite 30 I use in my forge even when subjected to some pretty heavy  handed guys. I say 1/2" like it's actually 1/2", it's . . . uh . . . er . . . well, pretty close to 1/2", most places.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[North State]

Ok cool Mikey and Frosty. 400ish is still warm so I feel better now. As for the buttering, the color was in no way inteneded as a jab! It was just the color i found. Also, i did take you guys spritz the wool before hand in that regard. Refractory next then I suppose some of that reflective stuff I read about also.

[pnut]

Getting close to being done. You should have pulled everybody's leg for a while and said no it is butter, you told me to butter it first!  I was just doing what you said. I spent two hours spreading country Crock on it.

Pnut

Edited September 16, 2019 by pnut

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

What a wasted opportunity that was.

[Mikey98118]

Have you drilled a weep hole in the shell at the bottom of the forge? It is smart to do that before firing the cast refractory layer (5/32" diameter).

[Frosty]

18 minutes ago, Irondragon Forge & Clay said:

What a wasted opportunity that was.

Really, a great opportunity fun 50,000+ people and he takes a pass. New guys, what can ya say? 

My current too large forge has 2 layers of rigidized 1" 8lb. Kaowool and 1/2" of Kastolite 30 with a sloppy wash of zircopax and kastolite binder. (I sifted the aggregate from Kastolite to stick the zircopax together.) 

After a couple hours running you can touch the shell but not for long, a second or so without getting burned. 

Oh, from now on I'm tinting rigidizer and heck everything that needs it yellow.

Frosty The Lucky.

[North State]

I am literally churning with laughter at the butter jokes! Glad to have made a slick impression!

Mikey, I hadnt thought about the weep hole... Is the refractory that thin when it is applied?

Looks like a pretty heavy weekend with the HVAC job. If i get time I would like to get to the refractory.

[pnut]

The weep hole is for steam to escape during drying and use.

Pnut

[North State]

Ok so when we set "plastic" refractory in the boilers at work, we take a 1/8th welding rod and poke holes to make the drying even. I didnt know if it was necessary here.

[Frosty]

If you intend to any forge welding you need to use a high alumina refractory to withstand borax based welding fluxes. Borax at welding temperatures is very caustic ad dissolves silicate based . . . anything. 

Kastolite is a bubble alumina containing evacuated silica spheres for weight reduction and increased insulation. It is advertised as being porous enough to not steam spall and can be applied to furnaces anywhere below red heat. 

I'm using Kastolite 30 and don't use a tank for a shell. I weld my shells air tight so I don't worry about steam pressure. Kastolite does NOT DRY, it is a WATER SETTING refractory that sets and cures so closely to Portland cement concrete you can use the same methods and time scales. 

Use no more water than necessary to make it workable in your application and NO stirring doesn't adequately mix it you have to give it a good churning. Actually mortar and pestle kneading works best in my experience, it needs to be wetter than recommended but you want to stop short of very much free moisture mixing.

Anyway, once troweled on, rodded in, poured, however and it begins to set place it in an air tight container with wet towels or a layer of water in the bottom of the tub and leave it a couple days to cure. We'll never need it's full strength or heat resistance so a full 7 day cure isn't necessary.  

After that, you can just put it to work or bring it to approx 230f. to drive off any moisture that isn't molecularly bonded in the refractory. 

If however there's any chance at all you have pressure tight pockets between the hard liner and shell they drill a weep hole! You do not want a steam explosion, even itty bitty ones can really smart.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

6 hours ago, North State said:

Ok so when we set "plastic" refractory in the boilers at work, we take a 1/8th welding rod and poke holes to make the drying even. I didnt know if it was necessary here.

Different refractories are more or less porous than some others; basically, it comes down to the amount of silica in the formula. Kast-0-lite 30 is low enough in silica content that it must be raised to yellow heat before it becomes mostly waterproof. Being relatively porous does not insure that it can't spall or crack from built up steam pressure during firing; it is just less inclined to than some other formulas.

[North State]

After a couple week distraction, I got a few bags (not that I will need all of them) of harbisonwalker tufshot LI plus. It runs about 45-50% alumina. Thats ok right? I mean it didnt cost me anything so I was like what the heck. I would love to form the refractory layer this weekend, but lately, who knows. 

[North State]

...ever see that episode of Andy Griffith, where the city slicker comes to sleepy Mayberry? He's all in a hustle and bustle to get where he was going, but due to car trouble, he got held up. The slow pace of town was very irritating to the man and he was heard several times saying "For the love-of-Mike, just DO IT! DO IT!" Well, thats how you guys have mist likely felt with my questions ands and anxieties with this forge build. After a long wait on the refractory, I finally DID IT! I practiced my mixture consistency on the lids. It was more down and dirty than I wanted, not as smooth outcome as the first go at the refractory, but overall I am very happy with it so far. As I trowled it in and rolled the shell, I found that the mud tried to peel off as gravity worked against me. Not to be deterred, I trowled in as much as I could and then stood the shell on end to do the last bit. Thankfully, it held together so far. I lowered a drop light inside to slowly heat out the moisture. Should I worry about the cracks in the corners of the door openings? Can I just patch them after it cures?  As always, thanks for all the helpful advice. Hopefully soon, I will put the burner(s) back in and see how she does.

[North State]

Also, for those on a shoe string budget like me, here is a very low cost anvil I made to get started on. I always heard you can have GOOD, FAST or CHEAP,  but only get to pick two. I guess my two are CHEAP with half GOOD and half FAST...

[Frosty]

Not being able to read what's in the refractory I can't say if hanging a light bulb inside is the mistake I think it is. Most refractories don't DRY, they hydrate like Portland cement concrete does. Moisture is molecularly bonded to the refractory "cement" and needs plenty of additional moisture to cure to full strength.

Do NOT take that last as a statement of fact about the product you used I do NOT know what it is or how to use it. I certainly could be wrong.

I've almost given up completely on troweling castable refractory, next forge will be cast and vibrated to de-air. 

Ah, the: good, fast, cheap, pick two doesn't always count when you're doing it yourself. Nothing wrong with your forge or anvil. You could've spent less time by not trying to make a rail anvil look like a London pattern. The London Pattern is just a shape I do probably 95%+ of my forging on the face and edges, the hardy hole is in the heel so I use it I guess. I almost never use the horn they're really over rated. Give your forge plenty of time to cure before firing it up the first time. It looks like a good working shape and size.

You're off to a good start. Well done.

Frosty The Lucky. 

[ThomasPowers]

When you are making an improvised anvil what you really want to duplicate from a commercial anvil is the sweet spot---the part of the face where there is iron/steel all the way down to the base.  Why we don't advise folks to use I beam as there is only a narrow section of sweet spot down the middle. The rest is much less efficient and LOUD when being hammered on.

This is also why plate anvils work better on edge---more metal under the face!

[North State]

Yeah, Frosty, being an extreme novice, I cant swear to the technical aspects. However it didnt crack over night and it seems to be extremely hard... We shall see shortly how it performs. 

I see your point, Thomas, about the sweet spot. If this hobby of mine, turns into a habit, i hope to be able to justify a few hundred in a real anvil someday.

[pnut]

Some refractories need to be placed in an airtight container with something to add humidity to "set" properly but as Frosty mentioned it may not be the case with the refractory you used. 

Pnut

 

[Frosty]

Don't sweat it, nobody's born knowing this stuff and we're learning all the time. 

That IS a real anvil, put it to work but keep your eyes open for something more effective. Whatever you use to beat against is by definition an anvil. The London pattern is just a fairly recent shape and not the most common around the world. Please don't get locked into thinking The London Pattern is the Real anvil. 

The device we screwed into the top of: Penetrometer Rod, casing or drill rod to drive a split spoon sampler is the anvil and the automatic hammer we drove it with weighs 350 lbs. or 140 lbs. You don't drive a split spoon with the 350 or they crush and you have to pull everything to finish the hole. I was an exploration driller, drilling test holes for bridges and foundations. I only bring this up as an example of a 30 lb anvil being struck with a 350 lb hammer. The hammer delivers the energy the anvil receives it. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[North State]

PNUT, i read somewhere that people had put theirs in a bag or container. Honestly, i forgot all about that step. The guy I got it from said in the industry where it is used, the best way to cure this type is to put heat to it. Low-fire or a lamp. Im glad it didnt crack. I will see how it takes heat when i get the lids fitted back up. 

Frosty, holy cow! 350lb hammer! Wow! I also have a piece of steel that looks like a big hockey puck. It is about 4" diameter and about 4" tall. Theyre used on rail cars to roll with the weight of liquid in tank cars. They dampen the "slosh" when the train stopps. It is good and flat, i just wish it were bigger! I also have 2 pieces of plate steel that are about 2.5-3" thick, I believe. Youre right though, whatever you use to bang out stuff with ends up being the anvil. My dad always said I could tear up an anvil... Hopefully i wont prove him right.

[ThomasPowers]

Could be worse; I once read a quote that "the Standard Issue Marine could break an anvil with a rubber mallet!"

(My Grandfather was a Marine in WWII; he survived a little set to known as Iwo Jima, Battle of.  In his mid 90's now...finally gave up driving.  When I was in single digits he once told me that Marines didn't shave; they just pounded the whiskers in with a ball peen; then then bit them off inside their mouth and spit them out.)