Forging A Steel Star

[Frosty]

I'm not contending with you to contend I was just replying to statements you directed to me. I'd have to go back and watch the video again, I may have misremembered how much grinding was going on. Nope, 2:30 - 3:59 of the video is taken up with grinding relief in the master die, used to forge the female. Almost all the chisel work was defining the pattern depth was ground in. 

I don't know why you reject anybody's definition of "traditional" except your own and turn around and try to define MY opinions by YOUR terms. Just because I have years of experience in a machine shop doesn't make me a machinist, it just gives me a broader knowledge of metal working. I've been blacksmithing decades longer and I don't know of any machinists who try and define my opinions as a blacksmith unless we're talking blacksmithing.

Go ahead, define traditional how you wish but unless you like your rationalizations and arguments disassemble you  might just let other folk define it how they will.

The main point of my responding at all was to bring to folks attention the term "traditional" has ALWAYS been a subjective term, it doesn't mean what most people think it does. Tradition is a history of ROTE education, whatever the subject. For silly example, Gronk knaps hand axes this way because that's how Nok learned it from Tunk who learned it from Kank and so on for generations. Gronk knaps hand axes in the traditional way.

THAT is what Tradition means. Cultures that refuse to deviate tend to be stagnant and start to decline until reality changes the educational meme.

I ONLY asked you questions to see if you would or could examine what you said and think about it further than trying to convince others. The Socratic method is a means of getting a person to examine their own thoughts, statements, etc. find the holes and patch them, it's a method of teaching critical thinking. This link covers the basic principle nicely. https://www.thoughtco.com/what-is-the-socratic-method-2154875

When the person you're engaging just restates their position with lengthier explanations and backs it with often pointless details they aren't getting it. 

I haven't asked you THE questions I've had about this and other conversations. And NO, my question isn't WHY does Anvil take things so personally when nobody directed a statement towards him. I get that. I've been asking myself HOW can I get you to examine statements without getting so personally invested. So, I keep trying to bring the conversation back to the POINT. MY point, I knew yours before I responded to you.

The word tradition is used with such abandon it really doesn't mean anything anymore. It means no more than: "Best!", "Clinically proven", "Panel of experts," etc. in advertisements. When a word or term's meaning is almost entirely contextual it no longer defines anything meaningful. It has as much specific meaning as "pretty. Marketing noise.

You my friend trigger on the word Traditional. Your need to defend how you do things is completely unnecessary here. You are the only person in this thread attaching the word to what YOU do. Believe it or not if some melonhead actually attacked your work on most ANY basis, especially some personal definition of the WORD traditional. They'd get dog piled by the curmudgeons and other better smiths on the forum.

Take a breath and just let this go. eh Brother? It don't mean nothing.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Well said Frosty.

[anvil]

Frosty, first an apology. Another gentleman pointed out that segment, so I too went back and looked at it. Its hard to tell, but he certainly detailed the outside edges with a side grinder and a dremmel. Hard to say on the teardrop. It appears he might have, or just tuned it up.Im just not sure. Check out 11:42 for this detail. Its certainly not how I would do it. The chisel he used, a teardrop tool and a half round bastard file or equivalent works wonders for this. And far quicker. Hope this covers the basics of the vid. 

Definitions. Again, sorry that you think Im forcing this on anyone. Not so. Simply stated this keeps it simple and prevents arguments and mindless debates, And Only Applies To Me. So heres the deal.

Whats your definition of Blacksmith?Traditional Smith, either or? both? What is the emotion you feel when dealing with these terms,,, sitting by the fire, contemplating our craft, when not reacting to anyone else,,, just in your own personal moment? For me its simple. In my mind an image of someone between hammer and anvil beating hot iron, and the emotion it creates is passion, excitement and wonder watching this medium called iron move. 

How about you, or anyone else? I promise you that if you, or anyone does this I will remember and apply this to your responses. I will understand where you are coming from etc.  I will completely accept it as valid and correct for you. It will never conflict with me or my views. Can you do that for my definition? accept it as a descriptor of me?  Nothing more? Doesn't this approach show absolute respect for all? Does this not remove the endless and inane arguments from the discussion? Just a thought.  

On 6/30/2019 at 12:29 PM, Frosty said:

Gronk knaps hand axes this way because that's how Nok learned it from Tunk who learned it from Kank and so on for generations. Gronk knaps hand axes in the traditional way.

THAT is what Tradition means. Cultures that refuse to deviate tend to be stagnant and start to decline until reality changes the educational meme.

If thats truely your definition,, straight from Websters, I accept that completely.  But I just cant resist this,,, And for all who consider blacksmithing an anachronism of the past,,, a dead end.

This is without one of those special moments in history.

Carpe Deum!

describes this moment. If i wasnt confronting a hip operation from the VA,,, someday ,,, VA soon. I'd have a ticket to Paris and I would be doing my best to become a part of the restoration of Notre Dam. Id be satisfied to be a hoddy for the stone masons! Or part of the crew that refaces the tools needed for tomorrow! And I may anyway! They may use contemporary techniques to update the structural components, but when they skin it, what you see will be no different than what the first person saw when he walked thru the doors some 1100 years ago. Anybody catch the French smiths on facebook that spent the last two years figuring out how the hinges for the entry doors for Notre Dam were made? These folks are going to be busy, and those hinges will be a minor part.  

So just what picture enters your mind on a quiet night, sitting by the fire, contemplating those who will be the "Smiths of Notre Dam"? Again, not forcing anything on anybody, but it fits my "definition" to a tee. Just a bunch of Traditional Smiths, hanging out betwixt hammer and anvil,,, beating hot iron.   

[Anachronist58]

A very reasonable post, Mr. Anvil. Personally, I have little understanding of "tradition",  as applies to the forge. 

My Avatar name refers to my inability to sort out concepts such as these.

Everyone have a Happy Day!

Robert Taylor

[Frosty]

21 minutes ago, anvil said:

What is the emotion you feel when dealing with these terms,,, when not reacting to anyone else,,,

Who's emotions are you really asking about? I'm in the moment at the anvil, I focus on the steel, emotions get in the way. 

21 minutes ago, anvil said:

Definitions. Again, sorry that you think Im forcing this on anyone. Not so. Simply stated this keeps it simple and prevents arguments and mindless debates. So heres the deal.

This isn't a mindless discussion, it's pointless. You're trying to convince folk you have a legitimate definition of a word and as I've attempted to get you to realize the word has lost any real meaning through random use. I'ts a marketing buzzword more than anything. Yes, Websters not only provides the definition but the etymology of words. The story of the word is of more interest to me than hackneyed buzzwords.

If you want a good term or word for your business cards and shop sign, borrow one of Jennifer's favorite descriptions of acceptable work. "Good Clean" and add your noun. I'd use "Forgings." Good Clean Forgings would work nicely. That's just me though, I don't try to limit myself where working metal is concerned.

Ahh, the restoration of Notre Dam what a crew to be part of, well beyond my present abilities. Master and Journeyman smiths forging iron to the specifications of the commissioner. What, 12th cent? Did they start the ironwork that early? All those fine people working in the tradition of the 12th-14th century?  Nothing but charcoal right?

Look to your own definitions Brother. The only reason I'm taking part in this conversation is to not be rude by ignoring it as pointless as the Ford Chevy debate. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[JHCC]

31 minutes ago, anvil said:

Carpe Deum!

I think you mean "Carpe diem", which means "Seize the day".  "Carpe Deum" means "Seize God"!

[anvil]

 Most likely it was started around the 9th century, but Im not sure.I had an experience a few years ago. I was in Frankfort, Germany and met two brothers who were the 10th or 11th smiths to restore the screens for the Frankfort cathedral. There were 4. Each was about 15' high and 30-40' long. Over a 100 years the bottoms would rust away. The Church was very specific on how the restoration was done. They could use any techniques to remove the rusted parts, but when putting it together they were very specific and technique was primary. I put in a whopping 3 or 4 hours on a sunday before heading home.You can bet the church has all the documents needed for this restoration. Keep tuned, we are just at the beginning of this great adventure.

Thanks, my Latin is weak and i couldnt remember the spelling from the Robin Williams movie. 

[Steve Sells]

I prefer Carpe Ductum

[Stash]

'Duct ergo sum'

Steve

[Frosty]

My Yahoofu hits all say, Maurice de Sully Bishop of Paris ordered it build in 1160 ad.

When I accept a job, whatever it is, the boss rents my time and it's his to define. If someone wants me to forge with camel droppings that's what I'll do and bill my time and materials. I'll work to whatever time period the person paying my checks wants. That's what a professional blacksmith does.

I am no longer up to any standard to consider myself a pro and don't claim to be. 

Europe is famous for iron work and restorations should be done the way they were made or they're reproductions, not restorations. Anything else is unethical. 

All the best on the upcoming surgery and a speedy recovery. I haven't heard anything but good regarding joint replacements. 

When I was working out of town all the time I used the term, Carpe per Dium to the shock of the management boffos.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Andrew Cramer]

Hi, people!

This is a reloading of the previous video "Making a steel star" with a new editing (disclaimer below)

*THINGS DOING IN THIS VIDEO ARE NOT SAFE OR SOMETIMES DANGEROUS, IT'S NOT A TUTORIAL, JUST MY VARIANT OF DOING THIS THING*

 

https://youtu.be/uC6gpdXl49A

this does not warrant  2 threads, and has been merged with the first

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

About 3 min into the edited version, I turned it off due to the annoying music. I would rather listen to the shop sounds. We also don't have a clue as to where you are located, even though there was some speculation if I remember correctly.

Quote

Hes prolly from northern Europe, possibly middle Europe and a good chance he is from Czechoslovakia.

I did note the CNC section was edited out. The disclaimer needs to be on the video itself.