Laughing Dog Forge Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Hi everyone, I am fairly new to knife making, I have been playing around with blacksmithing for a long time now and am still learning all the technical things that are involved in this hobby. I have a 225,000 BTU propane forge, a 50lb Little Giant Power hammer and just about everything else except a press and a 2 x 72 belt sander. I have acquired some Portland, OR. aerial tram cable and am trying to forge some pattern welded steel knives out of it that really show it off. I have forged the cable and folded it 625 times just to see if I could do it. It seemed to turn out ok. after a soak in muriatic acid there was no noticeable pattern. I have since had a part of the forged billet tested and the results came back that the steel is 1040. My desire is to be able to make a knife that really shows the cable off and makes a good knife, I think that I need to add another steel that is darker and will have the same heat treating properties. I have been thinking of trying to do canister forging, this looks like fun and I think that the cable strands would show up real well or I could forge weld the cable strands with another metal and play with patterns. So now for my questions; what would be the best steel to add, whether for canister or forge welding, thoughts on carbon migration, quenching oil, acid to use, reducing fire, and anything else I have forgot. 201905169LaughingDog.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 21 minutes ago, Laughing Dog Forge said: I have forged the cable and folded it 625 times just to see if I could do it. I am calling you on this one, If you were insane enough to actually fold it 625 you now have a very small section of mild steel that will not make a knife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 If you folded it 625 times each layer would theoretically be smaller than the radius of the iron atom and be invisible to our eyes. Are you suffering from radiation poisoning? Or did you mean 625 layers? Which is rather meaningless with cable anyway. Did you etch with full strength Muriatic acid or quite dilute acid? Full strength won't show a pattern as it eats everything and there is not much difference in forge welded cable. Very weak acid may show some differentiation. 1040 is not going to be a great blade. Have you thought of San Mai where you can have low layer counts for show and a good steel for the edge? As a gedanken experiment I did x^y for 2, 625 and then 1/x (thanks kcalc!) and got appx 7 x 10 to the -189. Now I can't see layers at even one millionth of an inch thick and the Iron atom has a .126 nm Van der Waals radius so you can see why we thought there was an "oops" there. And as Steve mentions it would be decarbed, I'd say all the way to scale myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Dog Forge Posted March 28, 2019 Author Share Posted March 28, 2019 I am sorry If I sound like an Idiot, as i said I am New to knife making and I forged the steel just to see if I could do it. I did not know at the time of forging what the steel was. I paid to have it tested so that I could see if this could work. is this worth doing? can I add another steel to this to make a steel that is realistic to make a blade, Steve I have your book and respect your opinion, However I just want to know if there is a way to show off the cable in the pattern, and help with the heat treating. I didn't expect to get beat up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Can you tell us what the 625 refers to? (It's quite common for folks to get folds and layers mixed up when talking about this stuff; and quite common to get a lot of nonsense spouted too; as you are actually working with the metal we expect more from you in that regard! When you take on advanced projects we expect you to be ready for them! Think of it as "Grandmotherly Kindness") Have you thought about San Mai? Also I believe that Hrisoulas has a section on forging cable in one of his books; ahh yes: Chapter 6 in "The Pattern Welded Blade" the third in his series: "The Complete Bladesmith, The Master Bladesmith, The Pattern Welded Blade" Steve does your second book cover this as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Weld the cable and then make the knife. I did not go into cables in book 2, but I did cover it in Introduction to knifemaking starting on page 153 to 157 and I pointed out that there would be not much of a pattern left after 10 folds I cant imagine anything being left of a 20# block to even try to see a pattern on after 600+ folds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxwellB Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 If you folded the billet to get 625 layers, and you started with steel cable, you're not going to get a very appealing etch. Unless you added a secondary steel to the mix, that much hammering and folding and hammering again just homogenized the cable. Which is why smiths will use something like 1080 and 15n20 so that the pattern shows. I mean, you might be able to get layers visible if you trapped any scale between the folds or had carbon migration, but everything the same material won't produce the effect you were after. Sorry mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Dog Forge Posted March 28, 2019 Author Share Posted March 28, 2019 Tom, I forged out the cables into a billet then cut it in 5 sections and reforged it and repeated until I got 625. This is how I learn. Since this was my first knife I wanted to take it as far as I can, I annealed it and and then drilled the holes for the handle and heat treated it at a knife making class and put a handle on it just so I could experience the whole knife making processes from beginning to end, then I can picture everything that needs to be done. I did use full strength Muriatic acid. what are your recommended dilution ratios? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Dog Forge Posted March 28, 2019 Author Share Posted March 28, 2019 so..... If I was to do San Mai what steel would you recommend for the edge? If I was to add another steel to really make a good knife and be able to show off the cable, what steel should i use? 1040 I know does not make a good blade, could I forge weld another steel into it to add carbon, create patterns and make a good blade? I did not know that folding had a limit, I just thought more was better, what is the theory on how many times you fold it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyO Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 5x5=25 x5=125 x5=625. makes sense to me. 1 hour ago, Laughing Dog Forge said: I just want to know if there is a way to show off the cable in the pattern, I'll agree that this many layers won't make a great damascus pattern, even if you were to use the typical 1080/15N20. I've found that when I get past ~300 layers, the pattern doesn't show up much. If you have any of the cable left, I'd just twist weld the cable into a billet, cut it into 2 pieces and then sandwich some 1080 or other tool steel for a san mai blade as mentioned above. You still probably won't get much of a dramatic pattern because the 1040 is like a mild steel and not enough nickle to shine. Here's a pic (not the best, sorry) of one I did with O1 core/15N20/mild steel on the top. Notice how the mild steel looks kinda muddy. This one is O1/15N20 31 minutes ago, Laughing Dog Forge said: what are your recommended dilution ratios I use 3 parts water to 1 part Ferric Chloride (PCB etchant from Radio Shack) You in Portland? Are you a member of the NWBA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Dog Forge Posted March 28, 2019 Author Share Posted March 28, 2019 Thanks Billy, Yes I am a member of the NWBA looking forward to the next conference! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 41 minutes ago, Laughing Dog Forge said: .... forged out the cables into a billet then cut it in 5 sections and reforged it and repeated until I got 625. First you said 635 FOLDS now your talking LAYERS there is a major difference I was not beating you up, you made the statement of folds and I called foul. You cant carry on a conversation when you wont use proper terms to share information , folding 625 times is a lot different than only folding 3 or 4 times to get 625 layers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Dog Forge Posted March 28, 2019 Author Share Posted March 28, 2019 Thanks Steve, Like I say I really respect you, I did not know the difference in the language, Thanks for clearing it up for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 The limits on folding depend on what you are starting with and what you are trying to end with. The dilution of the acid depends on what you have and what you want to see with it, temperature of your shop, alloy being etched and how it was worked and heat treated. The alloy you add depends on what you have/can afford to purchase, can work, what you want to end up with, etc and so on. THERE ARE NO SIMPLE ANSWERS! Hundreds of pages have been written on this and there are college degrees on metallurgy. Now if you have thin layers and no carbon migration blocking alloys then 4 times to welding heat generally will homogenize the carbon content; though new forge welders tend to decarb their steel a LOT more than experienced people. If your cable will be the plain steel in your blade why not choose a bright steel for the center? Like 15N20 with 75 points carbon. If edgeholding is a big factor you probably want to go higher in carbon for the edge but could always do a 1084 center piece, thin 15N20 and then the 1040 cable. Had any prob/stat? You are piling up a lot of advanced stuff and wonder why you are having issues. remember if you have 2 items with a 1 chance in 4 occurring if you stack them you get 1 chance in 16! now add in several more items... I strongly suggest you start out doing mono-alloy blades and when you get good with that and familiar with alloys and working temps and heat treating them, then move into pattern welding. Otherwise work directly under someone who's good at this and will yell at you a lot when it's too hot, too cold, too oxidizing, too fast, too slow, too strong, too weak, still showing scratches, etc and so on. Expect to trash your weight in steel getting good. Now attending ABS classes will speed up your learning curve. Got any out there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Dog Forge Posted March 28, 2019 Author Share Posted March 28, 2019 So the goal is to make a really cool knife out of the tram cable, really highlighting the cable strands. with good to excellent quality. All expert advice is really needed. how would you do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 An excellent quality dive knife would make a lousy skinning knife. An excellent quality camp knife would make a terrible kitchen knife. An excellent quality fighting knife would make a bad eating knife. You are still using subjective terms without providing details. The fastest, easiest, cheapest way would be to send it to a pro and ask them to do it. How I would do it: start by unwinding certain strands of the cable and replacing them with high nickle alloy strands. Weld the cable, fold once and weld again. Forge out and clean the surface and do a san mai with 15N20 and 1084 center. Forge to shape leaving enough thickness for grinding. I would expect a large number of tries before you got it all right---remember: "If at first you don't succeed---don't take up skydiving!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Dog Forge Posted March 28, 2019 Author Share Posted March 28, 2019 Thanks Thomas, my inexperience is showing, I just got done with two knife making classes but feel like I really need more. I am really excited about making knives out of this cable. I just wanted to share with everyone my journey, seek advice and encouragement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 If that is special in some way to you; you will probably want to experiment on cable that is not special to you. Thanks for getting my name right too, Tom was my Father. I grew up answering to Tom-boy until my voice changed and then we ended up with Thomas to cut down on confusion; especially on the telephone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Dog Forge Posted March 28, 2019 Author Share Posted March 28, 2019 Thanks Thomas (sorry about the Tom) I am going to try your advice.I have over 100' of this cable, so lots to practice on. And I will seek out a sensei. I have a full time job and get very little time in the forge. I'm going to order some 15N20 and 1084 and play around with it. I will share my results here. Thanks Steve, I read everything you write and think very highly of you. For what kind of knives I am trying to make, I want to start with a bird and trout, and or a bush knife, kind of a an every day knife for a guy to carry, then maybe dive into kitchen knives, or folding knives. The later two only when I develop my skill more. If I have more questions I know I can ask for help here. Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxwellB Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 At this stage in the game it's all about learning. Learning what steels you like working with best. Learning what steels will do what you want in terms of edge retention and hardness. Learning how to work them/heat-treat them. Learning how you want to finish them. Learning what you're lacking in skills so you can focus on bringing that up a few notches... Remember... It's not all about the destination, it's mostly about the journey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyO Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 11 hours ago, Laughing Dog Forge said: Thanks Billy, Yes I am a member of the NWBA looking forward to the next conference! If you've been to any of the conferences in the last number of years, you probably know Bear, the picture under my name.... Hopefully I'll be able to make the 40th Anniversary Conference this May, if so, see you then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Note that some of that cable might make good "trading" stuff at the conference... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerryd Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 The tram up to pill hill was a big deal in Portland when they finished it. Just being able to say you make knives out of the cable would allow you to sell them to yuppies at Saturday Market for way too much money. They won't have to hold an edge because they'll be wall hangings and coffee table conversation pieces, so 1040 will be just fine all by itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jclonts82 Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 On 3/27/2019 at 6:04 PM, Laughing Dog Forge said: I just want to know if there is a way to show off the cable in the pattern, This is a post of mine, my first foray into cable, not great, but not terrible either... . So... for the NEXT KNIFE you make out of this cable, to get the pattern to show up, no adding up the layers, just get it solid, then shape a knife out of it, standard etching will show it off, plenty of threads explaining how to do the etch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Rotblatt Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 On 4/8/2019 at 1:14 PM, Jclonts82 said: no adding up the layers, just get it solid, then shape a knife out of it, standard etching will show it off You do not want to fold the cable or only do two or three layers maximum (and it generally looks worse). If you do so you will loose the pattern, or it will just look like regular folded Damascus if the pattern shows. Make one knife as Jclonts82 suggested. See if you can get a pattern, and see if it holds an edge. On 3/27/2019 at 8:00 PM, Laughing Dog Forge said: So the goal is to make a really cool knife out of the tram cable, really highlighting the cable strands. with good to excellent quality. All expert advice is really needed. how would you do it? What I would try next is a san mai blade (as many have suggested). Forge the cable into on billet...maybe 1/4" thick and about 1-1.5" wide. Make a sandwich with these on the outside and a good steel on the inside (like 1084 which is easy to work and heat treat). Forge weld the three layers together. The 1084 will make a good cutting edge, and the cable should make a nice lizard scale pattern on the sides of the blade. Dan R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.