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How much quench oil to use


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What's the minimum amount of quench oil for

a two pound hammer head ?
a three pound hammer head?
a four pound hammer head?

Is there a ratio of pounds (or quarts) of oil per pound of work ? Again assuming the work is a hammer head. 

 

Edited by dickb
left out some pertinent information
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Good Morning Dick,

There are many different Quenching Oils. They differ in their Quench Rate, how long does it take, degrees per second. If you have a larger container, it takes longer for the quench oil to heat up. If you have a smaller container it takes less time to heat up. Different Steels also cool at different rates. There is not a simple answer for your question.

Hardening of any material will only harden the surface, to a depth. The depth of hardness depends on the type of Steel and the Quench Rate of the Quench Medium. Sometimes it works better if your tongue is sticking out the left side of your mouth and you are standing away from the window, on your right leg.

Neil

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OK a few more details. 

My major concern is one of safety, I don't want to set the quench oil (canola oil) on fire and would prefer to use as small a quench tank as possible consistent with safety. 

As for type of steel, probably 1045 or 1050 . 

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The key to not setting your quench oil on fire is twofold:  completely submerge the red hot steel in the quench fluid rather than partial quenching, and ensure the fluid doesn't reach it's flash point for safety, or  rise above a quench temperature that will still be effective enough.  The former is just a function of proper procedure.  The latter could actually be calculated, assuming complete heat transfer between the hot steel at, say a maximum of  1,550 deg. F and the canola quench fluid at initially 130 deg. F (conservative temperatures).  Note that the flash point of Canola is around 620 deg. F, so I would try to keep it below the smoke point of 460 deg. F for safety.

However, you don't really need to.  1045 in crossections suitable for a 3# hammer should be able to be water quenched.  Pretty sure that is how I did my last 3# hammer head (hopefully someone who more regularly makes hammers will chime in, but if I recall correctly I didn't get sufficient hardness with an oil quench of the 1045 I used).  There is a potential for cracking at the cheeks, so make sure you don't have any stress risers or rapid changes of diameter.  Also, don't forget to temper right after quenching (and watch out for autotempering due to the mass of steel behind the face).

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Having a stable metal container with a flip lid and using tongs long enough to keep you out of the flare up and it's not such a big deal.  NOT having enough oil and a plastic container and short tongs---well I know a smith who burnt down his shop, (including ruining a just restored blacker powerhammer) AND got severe burns. (And he was heat treating a knife...)

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I built a stable base to hold the vertical welding gas cylinder  that I use for vegetable oil quenching,  I have a special absorptive material all around it---it's called a "sandy dirt floor" and spills can be cleaned with a shovel.   Using the vertical system I have noticed how much oil expands when it goes from cold to hot and my fill level reflects that so I don't get overflow.

I need to build a new base as I'm adding a Parks 50 quench tank made from a large vertical ammo can.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I prefer to just to use the same container the tempering is done in, heated with a torch to say 450, blade goes in for the quench stays in there for the temper, gets quenched again in ice water when its done tempering. Personally im a fan of extra virgin olive oil, its pricier but i also like using it for soaking leathers and sealing antler or bone, same container as the quench.

Doesnt hurt to use a food grade oil when most of your customers want mini seaxes or hunting knives.

Any plain carbon steel its better to use water though oil will make a case harden which its better to have a through harden with an austenizing temp around 1550f for plain carbon. Youre also going to want a temper around 575-600 for a hammer. I think the last time i checked the penetration on plain carbon steels above 1550f for hypereutechtiod steels the pentration radius was roughly 3/4th an inch. 1045-1050 is still hypereutechiod with the .8 manganese.

Where you want the oil is in the prescience of chromium.

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Sly: your advice goes against most of what I know about hardening. If you have cites, please post them or the links. How do you prevent your 450 f. oil from catching fire during a quench? Stopping the temper from running is NOT quenching. How long have you been doing this?

My quench tank is a 15 gl. grease barrel with a clamping lid, I keep the lid on to keep stuff out of the oil  or next to the tank when using it. The grease barrel is in a cut down 55 gl. drum, again with a lid as spill and fire containment. I typically quench in 8 - 10 gl. of old fryer oil from the deli section of Safeway.

Rather than reach down into the tank I'll rig a hanger, 1/4" rnd bends into hooks and cradles the work won't slip out of so you can stay well out of the smoke or fire. If I did a lot of hardening I'd maybe make a set of tongs with handles bent to keep my out of the smoke, etc.

Frosty The Lucky.

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golden rule :if it makes you uncomfortable DO NOT DO IT

The method for making bainite is to quench it into molten lead about 1000 degrees and then keep it there to temper it. there are other methods to get it there such as quenching to martensite and sustaining for a length of time under the annoying S curve and then reheating it since bainite has no lower limit to when it will form, you can go above or under the S curve but not through it usually takes three hours. Realistically speaking on a phase diagram there is no, none at all difference between quenching and tempering one simply just brings it down to the tempering temp and you keep it there. draw a line on a phase diagram and make it one curved line from quench to temper rather rather then dealing with a secondary phase diagram. the advantage is the time is consolidated and the grains never ever over or under harden. It is an exact method.

This is of coarse an industry based practice almost all of your manufactured quench parts are done this way, albeit with a different oil.

The olive oil works in this case being is viscosity is thick even when heated, As for the ignition when boiling I keep a lid on it, If when I open the lid it flares I tweak the flame and try again until it is just so. (opening the lid away from me) Not good beginner advice. I get a very small fire for a second or two and it dies on the quench. Olive oil does not really explode and if you quenched room temp olive oil with a blade at 1500 f preferable to some alloys (say Cru Forge V my primary steel nowadays) the oil most definitely fires and exceeds 450 for a time (sword making is different from knife making you want a decent durability rather then pushing the limits of hardness). 

I didnt quite think that post over because well, iv dealt with alot of oil fires before on a day to day basis when cooking (professionally) and did not think anything of it, it wasnt my intention to get any inexperienced person hurt. This is also why I said it's my method.

How long have I been doing this method? three years forging. 0 burns but I do hold it at arms length with tongs that are clamped. I will have to rethink alot of my posts as it seems what I do  effortlessly would probably get someone else hurt. My safety has come from competency  and acquired skill and not counter measure.

I apologize to any concerned and or offended individuals concerned. Annnnnd I will go away now quietly.

golden rule :if it makes you uncomfortable DO NOT DO IT
 

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Its also not really any more dangerous then using a torch to weld or plasma cutter two feet away from you, good pair of jeans an apron and a leather jacket with a face sheild and youre just fine.

Last post on methods. Use good PPE.

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A torch or plasma cutter does not spill all over the floor burning down your shop.  here is a partial list of acceptable marquenching oils. Notice that Olive oil is not among them. Salt baths have the widest range of operating temperatures, I was taught oils are 1 gal oil to 1 pound of steel, and more is better.

 

  • Parks Marquench M Flash point of  435°F(224°C) Operating temp 250-350°F (121-177°C)

  • Eastto Marquench oil 220 Flash point of 464°F (240°C)

  • Eastto Marquench oil 260 Flash point of 536°F (280°C)

  • Exxon FESNO Flash point of 413°F (212°C)

  • HP Metaquench 86 Flash point of 446°F (230°C)  Operating temp from 302-428°F (150-220°C)

  • HP Metaquench 87 Flash point of 482°F (250°C)

  • Heathbath Thernoquench Flash point of 580°F (304°C)

  • Mar-Temp Oil 2565 Operating temp to 475° F (246.2°C).

  • Mar Temp 355 Operating temp from 250-375ºF (121-190ºC)

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for the same reason motor oil is not on a diner menu.  it is not what its designed for,

If you worry so much about it,  run the tests yourself and post the results for us all here. like quench speed and flash points amd  operating temps and its effects on longevity, tho I doubt there is much savings buying motor oil over a proper quench oil

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