Abenakis Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Hi I am about to buy a new anvil and I see that most anvil makers are going for something around 50-52 HRC. Is there a direct relationship between the rebound factor of the anvil and its hardness? Is it possible to have too high an HRC that would make the anvil brittle? Thanks everybody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Yes and Yes. The simple ball bearing test will show the relationship between hardness and rebound. Folks with high RC anvils *should* have the edges draw back a bit lower in RC to prevent spalling so just like a good hammer the center is harder than the edges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 What Thomas said with the addition of how dangerous chips off the edges can be. When you hear the CRACK of a piece of HC steel chipping it's the shard breaking the sound barrier, not the metal breaking, that's a tink. Your legs and femoral artery are usually within a foot or so and well within the piercing range of flying shards. The shard won't stay supersonic for more than 2-3' but that's far enough. Open a femoral artery and you can bleed out in about 2-5 mins. It's another good reason to wear, eye protection, an apron, preferably leather and such. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abenakis Posted June 2, 2008 Author Share Posted June 2, 2008 Do I understand that it should be safer to go with more 'normal' HRC rating than the 59 that Refflinghaus report and later, when I get good at hammering where I want, I could jump to higher rates? I guess you have understood that I am a newbie. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 I'd trust Refflinghaus to not be too brittle, they're a modern alloy. Regardless I'd wear safety gear of an apron till my hammer control was good enough I stopped missing the work. Always protect your eyes and ears. Working as much as possible to the center of the face is a good idea too while you're developing accuracy. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abenakis Posted June 3, 2008 Author Share Posted June 3, 2008 I got that from Vaughn site:Vaughans' anvils are cast in steel (not Iron) to a long tried and tested blend. The working face is heat treated to 60-65 Rockwell and a narrow strip around the perimeter of the working face is left untreated to absorb the impact of any hammer blow, which accidentally glances off a workpiece during use. I guess at this point, they prefer to take no chances with what you described as a real possible danger. I am just back from the store to get a face shield, good leather gloves and a mask for paint/ welding fumes and dust; with the leather boots and apron, I will weight more than my anvil but I will be safe! Thanks for the advice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveh Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 Even at 60-65 rockwell a miss hit will dent the face,dont ask how i know.What i have been wondering is how hard the face on my big old Peter Wright has gotten over the years.I cant believe how hard it is,dont miss with your head in the way of the rebound.Anyone got any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philip in china Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 I think that Vaughans catalogue is really useful and has some great ideas in it often not stuff to buy but to make yourself! Just be careful it is Vaughans. Watch that second A. I have a British made Vaughan and wouldn't swop it for anything ... excet possibly a bigger Vaughan! Some bigger anvils are slightly softer than their smaller cousuns. This might be due to difficulties in getting a very fast quench on an anvil as big as that although I was also told that the slightly softer nature was because a really big unit tends to be used by teams of strikers and so a bit softer is better. I don't know if that is true but it seems to make sense. If you can afford it I think the best plan for a beginner is to get a new, high quality anvil as big as you are going to need. I would almost say work out what is the biggest one you ever think you will need and then get one size bigger! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abenakis Posted June 3, 2008 Author Share Posted June 3, 2008 So, Philip, you say you love your Vaughn anvil! Good to know. It's the first report I see from an owner of this make. It looks interesting and, at around a grand, I could very well go this route. It misses the upsetting block and the little sidebar that, I am sure, can make some delicate work a lot easier but I already have a workaround for those. Thanks for the input:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abenakis Posted June 3, 2008 Author Share Posted June 3, 2008 Well, Philip made me realise that there are 2 names that are alike: Vaughn and Vaughan. And their value would not be the same at all. Be careful, another site has made the same error and that's where I was mislead. Thanks Philip for correcting me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt87 Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 Even at 60-65 rockwell a miss hit will dent the face,dont ask how i know.What i have been wondering is how hard the face on my big old Peter Wright has gotten over the years.I cant believe how hard it is,dont miss with your head in the way of the rebound.Anyone got any thoughts? Sounds like work hardening of the face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blksmth Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 Abenakis, you might think I'm prejudice and I guess I am because I am the Refflinghaus Anvil Dealer for North America. I became the Refflinahaus dealer because I thought they needed to be available to blacksmiths in the USA. Nevertheless, here are some more thoughts for you: Your hammer should always be softer than your anvil. If you anvil is hard it is easier to find a softer hammer. I know of only one Ernst Refflinghaus anvil that has a dent in it from a hammer blow. Hammers if softer than the anvil generally do not dent an Ernst Refflinghaus anvil. Of course any anvil can be abused. Ernst Refflinghaus anvils have a rebound of from 90 to 95%. Rebound that high does make a difference, although I'm sure the Vaughans would rebound that high also. Vaughans visited the Ernst Refflinghaus factory a few years ago to see how they made quality anvils. Refflinghaus is not know to have problems with edge chipping, although as with any hard steel, it can happen. I have never seen a Refflinghaus with a chipped edge, but the owners probably take pretty good care of them. Chipped edges can happen to any anvil, the RC45 anvil, or even the old anvils with a welded on face plate. If you look at enough old anvils it is easy to see the problems associated with soft anvils, including the problems with soft edges. Also, if looking at old anvils it is usually noted that they also suffer from chipped edges, it is a fact of anvil life. Some of the older anvil were prone to chipping but not all. If you would like and if you would send me a personal e-mail, I will give the names of some Ernst Refflinghaus owners. Most would be happy to talk to you about their anvil as they are very proud of them. I have more than one blacksmith that has more than one Refflinghaus anvils in their shop. One Refflinghaus owner that has 2 Refflinghaus anvils also has a Vaughans, a Nimba, a JHM, an Ozark Pattern, and as well as others. Before he acquired the Ernst Refflinghaus anvil, he was using a Vaughans anvil. Now, the anvils he uses daily are the Ernst Refflinghaus anvils. Thanks for listening. Dick Nietfeld, Shady Grove Blacksmith Shop, Shady Grove Blacksmith Shop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philip in china Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 Don't get too hung up on the absence of an upsetting block. On an anvil of a given weight I would sooner have the mass in the anvil rather than an upsetting block. Of course if the block is an extra to the size of the anvil then get the one with the block! I just have a couple of half moons cut out of 20mm plate. These are nailed to the tree stump I use as a stand. They serve two purposes. 1 they hold the anvil in place on the stump. 2 They act as an upsetting plate for upsetting small lengths. If you are upsetting longer bars then put an upsetting plate on the floor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer3j Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 Philip- you are the only other Vaughans owner to speak up. As we were trying to identify brand on mine, I thought more would pop up. The only markings on mine are the CW, the kgs and "England." Where a maker's name might have been is a smooth ground area- from what I can loosely figure out, it may have said "Brooks," another respected maker absorbed by Vaughans- perfectly matching blue paint, though aged a bit as it sat for a fair time in the back room. Any other Vaughan owners here?jet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt87 Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 I suspect there wouldn't be many; I get the suspicion that it's a fairly low-unit manufacturer (reseller?). Brooks on the other hand, there could well be a good few sitting round England, stopping doors, decorating gardens and stubbing toes in garages across the land. Plenty of anvils are put on eBay UK, most of the ones I've seen look like that sort; cast quality steel in the London pattern. They tend to go for a song too; would've picked one or two up if it weren't for the lack of a car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philip in china Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 There will be loads of them out there because I know, for a fact, that they supply all the anvils to the British army. They also supply almost all the ones to UK colleges that teach blacksmithing or farriering. When (if) I get my big anvil I am pretty sure it will be one of theirs. A Euro would be cheaper but written off over the life of an anvil how much is the cost? A few pounds a year! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abenakis Posted June 3, 2008 Author Share Posted June 3, 2008 Lots of great info from everyone. Thanks a lot. Philip, about the upsetting block, that's the kind of possibilities I was thinking. I already have a small anvil for the delicate work though I would have prefered to have everything together. You also said that the weight should be in the body. According to you, is it more important to have a heavier anvil or one with a higher HRC? Blksmth: thanks for all this info. I have already sent you an email as well as to Mr Refflinghaus and I was surprised that he would not be able to give me a rebound factor as you did. True that this anvil looks really great and it is still part of my list so we might be dealing something quite soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveh Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 i got my Vaughan anvil about 6mos. ago and i couldnt be more pleased.it is a2cwt double bick and i believe a top quality tool.i wouldnt hesitate to buy another one.i think with todays technology there isnt a lot of quality difference between the major makers.i am sure any one of them would have a dent or two after i had used them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abenakis Posted June 3, 2008 Author Share Posted June 3, 2008 Hi Steveh The US importer of Vaughn (Vaughn 224 lb Anvil, Double Horn) has photos and I can read on the side of its anvil: BROOKS ENGLAND. Is this what you read on yours? Do you know this company? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveh Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 that is the company you want if looking for a British made anvil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larrynjr Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 Abenakis, where are you located? If you go up to the user CP at the top of the page you can update your location. Knowing where people are makes it easier for smiths local to you to help when they can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abenakis Posted June 3, 2008 Author Share Posted June 3, 2008 (edited) Larrynjr, I hope that, this time, the site has kept my info. It might have been because of the photograph I used which was too big. Anyway, I live close to Montreal, Canada, province of Quebec. It seems that we are not many in this part of the world as I have been told that I will be the 45th blacksmith in the entire province! Thanks for your interest. BTW, are you still in love with your new anvil? Oh! Also thanks for the info for the Hardness vs toughness tabloid; I have printed it and I am currently reading the "Metallurgy of Steel for Bladesmiths & Others..." that you had linked in the same post. Very instructive. Edited June 3, 2008 by Abenakis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Beamish Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 The Anvil maker John Brooks of Stourbridge UK made very fine anvils, I suspect that this is the maker that was mentioned as being absorbed by Vaughans as there were located in the same area of the West Midlands, The Black Country in fact. An area with a fine tradtion of metal working of all sorts. I own a small John Brooks double piked anvil weighing 61 lbs which I use for demos, in fact the anvil block I use is quite a bit heavier than the anvil. Because of its unusual shape it does provide a talking point at demos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer3j Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 You have solved the mystery of what had been ground off(very neatly) my anvil- just in the space between CW and England. Thank you,jet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abenakis Posted June 4, 2008 Author Share Posted June 4, 2008 I have received an answer from VAUGHANS (HOPE WORKS) LTD which produce the beloved anvil:The anvils that we manufacture have 'BROOKS ENGLAND' on the side. There is a company in the USA called Vaughn but they are a dealer in specialist hand hammers. We have two dealers in the USA (Centaur Forge & Milwaukee Tool and Equipment Co.), they often misspell our name as 'Vaughn' So be careful; you must see this BROOKS ENGLAND on the side for the anvil to be a real VAUGHAN! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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