Today's Anvils Compared to The Older Ones

[markh]

I keep hearing you guys talk about anvils that have a tool steel face plate and cast iron body. Lots of people seem to very happy with them so I wonder why they are not manufactured that way anymore.
Also, what are the horns made from? Are they cast iron or part of the same chunk of tool steel as the face?
Does anyone have a photo or drawing of the tool steel component without the iron around it?
I have a Trenton and think It's made this way.
thanks

[primtechsmith]

I believe Kolswa, paragon, and maybe peddinghaus are all like this too...not sure though but I think I remember hearing/reading that somewhere.

Peyton

[yesteryearforge]

I really dont think any of those are manufactured in that manner.

Mike Tanner

[primtechsmith]

nevermind! .....looking back I over looked the whole point of the question and specifics.

it helps to really read sometimes! HA!!

Peyton

[ThomasPowers]

MarkH the book you want is Anvils In America all the dirt on how the anvils were made. IIRC the horn usually had a tool steel top but the body of it was often cast iron---Have to check my 500# Fisher...

Peddinghaus still are forged anvils; Kolswa, Paragon, Nimba, etc are cast STEEL.

As to why no new ones, well it's a tricky pour to make and get a good bond and a very low number to sell. Probably cost several times more than a cast steel anvil due to the extra work involved and the low number to be sold. Just think how much money it's going to take to get a foundry to experiment till they can get a good bond and so how much "upfront" cost will have to be either eaten or spread out on the ones that finally do work.

[Jymm Hoffman]

Thomas is correct about foundries and getting Postman's book, "Anvils in America." Today it is actually less expensive to pour the whole thing out of one kind of metal. The reason why the anvils I have had made are being done is H13 is the best price for performance, etc. I would have preferred S7, but it is more expensive (at least in the foundries I approached,) and while H13 does not get as hard on the Rockwell C scale, it is designed for hot working dies in presses and other large forging hammers. So theorectically, what ever we do to them will not change the hardness. We are hitting 52 to 54 Rockwell, where as S7 will push 60. Is there that much difference between Rockwell 54 and 60. I don't really know, but I don't think it is worth the extra cost. Also casting completely with one of these tool steels, they are "through hard," horns and body. The old wrought iron with steel faces were done that way because it was the best use of the material in the day, steel was much harder and more expensive to make and use. Fisher was one of, if not the only, company that perfected casting an anvil with a steel face. While Pedding House still claims to forge their anvils, from my understanding, they only forge the top half. The base is actually a casting today.

[NeatGuy]

The foundry which cast my anvil suggests that 4340, the material from which my anvils is cast, is one of the more stable and more likely to be successfuly heat treated steels; particularly for larger anvils. I can not speak to the truth of this but I am very happy with the anvil.

I would imagine that the steel face of older anvils was only high carbon steel as the more exotic alloys would have be much more costly to produce at the time ( I sure that I wil be corrected if I am less than accurate on this account so new high alloy anvils seem like they should be tougher. I would also imagine that forge welding a face to an anvil requires a rather high degree of skill to be consistant.

It would be interesting to xray old anvils to see how well they actually did stand up to years of beatings.

[philip in china]

I use a modern anvil and wouldn't want to go back to an old one with a hardened plate. Would I be right in assuming that when a modern type anvil which is steel throughout gets worn down it would be possible just to have the face machined and rehardened? I can see no reason why not. This is academic interest only because my anvil isn't going to wear out before me!

[brucegodlesky]

Time is a great testimonial

[HWooldridge]

This issue is dependent on two separate things - one is technology and capacity to produce an anvil, which has improved since the 1800's and the other is production volume for the manufacturer, which has decreased substantially in that same time.

Smiths went from rocks to lumps of metal to iron blocks as civilization advanced. The London pattern with welded face was the best design for a long time, but all wrought anvils suffer from the problems of chipped faces and collapsed bodies in areas where repetitive work is done. Fisher came along and more or less solved that problem so I would venture to suggest that the Fisher design was the best anvil ever made for the purpose. However, it was developed toward the end of the time when armies of blacksmiths stood at anvils all day long in every town.

Today, we have many ways to produce anvils but only so many are cost effective. It is highly doubtful anyone will ever again make a wrought iron anvil with welded face, since that technology and material is about gone. However, casting from tool steel, as Jymm does in his anvils, is suitable for both cost effective production and daily use by a smith. The Hoffman anvil or the new Hofi anvil, are made with the smith in mind and entirely suitable to pass on to your grandkids - but a good condition Hay Budden or Trenton will serve to do the same. In the end, it's the work the smith produces that matters, not what he used to make it.

[Fred Rowe]

As to the 300lb Fisher I just purchased; If you look from the side you can see the steel/cast iron seam. It goes from tip to tip on the anvil including the horn.

Fred

[Ten Hammers]

I like what Hollis has to say. The smith that makes transitions from forging in a wood stove and using a piece of rail for an anvil to buying his first forge and then his first anvil can appreciate more ( perhaps ) than the one that hasn't used the tougher way. Standard hardware store hammers ( you pick the brand ) that are labled "blacksmith" hammers will suffice until you try a real smiths hammer ( custom made or factory ) designed for forging. People that are new to the industry often think that they must have the very best and they ask a ton of questions ( sometimes ad nausium ). I am certanly no expert but I have experience in the issues earlier in this post. I am for the very large part self taught. As the years have passed I have learned a ton from the net and have made connections ( and friendships ) on the net that have served me very well. I have visited more than one smiths shop and some have visited my shop. I try and share knowledge and appreciate others sharing knowledge.

I have learned the most from Mr Postmans book ( regarding anvils ). Many of the old trade books, publications and shop books are extremely opinionated regarding many issues. Advertisements sometimes bordered on falsehoods. I have never used the cast anvil ( Fischer ) that originated this thread. I own 2 Hay Buddens and an Arm and Hammer, have owned Peter Wright and another in the past. If I had not owned these anvils I would have been greatful to have a Fischer I guess. The fact is that the finished goods produced ON the anvil is what counts ( like Hollis said ). I would LOVE to try one of Jymms or Hofi's anvils but doubt I will ever own one and will perhaps have the instance at an event somewhere to try one. Sorry for the rant. ALSO, as time marches on, technology changes as does business. I'm certain that these fellas making cast anvils are putting out good stuff or they wouldn't be putting their names and reputations on the line. A lot of people in industry have no real concept of what a hand hammer can do ( even on a welding table ). I regularly straighten things ( cold ) on tables that fab has not gotten right for welding ( from ironworker or roller ). Many are scared to smack something with a hammer ( due to no experience ). Smith skills will go a long ways and this will include bending bars and top/bottom tooling. Again sorry for the rant and taking a tangent away from the original posts question.

[Fred Rowe]

Upon closer inspection of this Fisher anvil, I notice that the steel, welded onto the cast iron base is in two pieces and, they used two different thicknesses of steel. Thicker on the face and thinner atop the horn.
The steel atop the horn is approximately 1 1/2" thick while the steel making up the face is 1 13/16" thick. You can see they cast a one inch step from the face elevation to the horn elevation into the cast iron base, then they welded the different thicknesses of steel into there proper place.
I thought this related to the original post and wanted to share,

Fred

[nett]

Fred, look closer at your anvil. The steel on the face is about 1/2 inch thick. You may be fooled by the break at the beginning of the undercut, which is part of the design, but the demarcation line is visible above it. To confirm the thickness, look inside the hardie hole and you will clearly see the line (you can even feel it).

[Fred Rowe]

Fred, look closer at your anvil. The steel on the face is about 1/2 inch thick. You may be fooled by the break at the beginning of the undercut, which is part of the design, but the demarcation line is visible above it. To confirm the thickness, look inside the hardie hole and you will clearly see the line (you can even feel it).

I'll take a closer look and see what I can see. I am going to give the anvil a clean up. I'm sure it will become more apparent when I get some of the crud off. Thanks for the input, Fred

[Fred Rowe]

Nett,

It is clear to see, when you look inside the hardy hole, the exact thickness of the steel. Around a half inch. What does the other more visible line indicate? Is this the beginning of the body taper?

Thanks for pointing this out. I have learned a lot this week about anvils. Thanks to everyone who posted, Fred

[nett]

Everything above that line was milled (or ground?) at the factory, including the face. Remember, the steel was coated with cast iron before being placed, red hot, into the mold prior to the pour, so the whole mess needed to be dressed up. I really marvel at how the whole anvil was put together, and am at a total loss how they would have hardened and tempered that plate without the whole thing shattering. I doubt we could reproduce one today.

[Frosty]

I doubt we could reproduce one today.

Why? Do you think we know less about metallurgy now than a century ago?

It may not be profitable to make anvils this way but pouring iron onto steel is far from a mystery and with today's technology no challenge.

Heat treating isn't a problem either, the mass of cast iron is sufficient to prevent it from cooling fast enough to crack while the steel plate will chill just fine. The trick is keeping the residual heat in the body from running the temper completely out of the face.

Still it's no challenge, especially with today's knowledge and equipment.

Frosty

[solvarr]

There is a group up in new england I heard about that does a welded face anvil every couple of years as a demo.
If I can stumble across the data again I'm planning on going.

[HWooldridge]

One of the old "Anvil's Ring" magazines had an article about a German factory that was still making welded face anvils in the 1950's. It was a fairly complete article about methods and tools required.

[Ten Hammers]

There is an article ( section, chapter if you please ) in Anvils in America about those German Smiths forging an anvil. Extremely nice reading.