CopesyQT Posted January 21, 2018 Author Share Posted January 21, 2018 I agree guys, yes if I knew more I could try to redesign for mine to fit it I'm going to concede defeat, luckily a few expensive parts I already have are returnable, I've just ordered the 1/8" pipe for the standard reil EZ burner and I was hoping on using a 0.6m welding tip instead of drilling a #60 hole. does anyone know the name for the "u" bolts mentioned, I've certainly seen them somewhere but searching U bolt brings up latger scale bolts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CopesyQT Posted January 21, 2018 Author Share Posted January 21, 2018 motomike, I have some 0.6mm welding tips (0.2... inches) and I am planning on attaching with "U" Bolts as it means i can drill and tap a M5 hole and just use the tips instead of buying and breaking and repeating a #60 drill, obviously this puts the jet further in the reducer but I cant imagine it would be noticeably further forward than in the Bordeaux design Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timgunn1962 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Copesy, making forge burners can be very rewarding, but it can also be an exercise in frustration. It will not be helped at all by the fact that most of the well-documented designs are based on US pipe fittings and parts. There are some substitutions that can be made without effectively altering the design, but there's something of a Catch-22, in that you won't be able to identify which changes are significant and which are not unless you understand burners well. If you understood burners well, you would not need to build someone else's design. A 0.6mm mig tip is intended for 0.6mm diameter wire. The need for clearance to allow the wire to feed during welding means that the hole is usually about .007" bigger than the nominal wire diameter. In this case, nominal diameter is around .024" and the hole diameter will be around .031", equivalent to a number 68 drill. The biggest factor in burner performance is the Air:Fuel ratio. Using a bigger gas jet than the design calls for will (usually) cause a richer-than-optimum mixture and a reduced flame temperature. In the UK, arguably the best approach is to buy an "Amal atmospheric injector" (now made by "Burlen Fuel Systems") in the correct size for your application. For reasons I will not bore you with, the injectors jetted for Butane tend to work very well in forges: better than those jetted for Propane. Usual disclaimer: I have no affiliation with either Amal or Burlen other than as a very satisfied customer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMike Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 I think you are probably right. if doing the mig tip, you can change them out to different sized. and by mounting it by the straps you'll not be too much farther in than the Bordeaux modification. I've not done the mig tip modification because it works ok as it. I think the channel in the longer tube of the mig tip is where the improvement occurs. If by u bolts you mean the devices holding the jet tube to the top of the reducer in the original design, I know them as pipe straps. they would be pretty easy to home brew I think. All that said, I bet if you used your mount, the plan size reducer, tube and flare, it would work as is with little trouble. Remember, I only know enough to be dangerous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frozenforge Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 A large roll of the mig tip size is the velocity of the propane as it is injected. While you could just change the pressure to inject the same amount of propane with a .035 vs .023 tip the larger tip will not induce as much air due to the lower velocity and it runs rich. Addition of the mig tip helps create laminar flow which keeps the velocity more stable. Small burrs or even scratches left by a drill bit cause turbulence in the propane stream too early and reduce the overall airflow of the burner. This applies to all of the NA burner designs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CopesyQT Posted January 22, 2018 Author Share Posted January 22, 2018 I believe 0.6mm is close to 0.023" but I understand tolerance could make it closer to what the 0.8mm is design to let through. i think I'm doing my self an injustice with saying I can't manage to drill a #60 hole and with UK drills it will probably be closer to 1mm (whatever # that is called) i'll try for pipe straps but for 1/4" is already giving me a headache! I do plan on switching to propane for any real usage im just impatient Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 On 1/21/2018 at 2:04 PM, Frozenforge said: Small burrs or even scratches left by a drill bit cause turbulence in the propane stream too early and reduce the overall airflow of the burner. This applies to all of the NA burner designs. Just so. I like to use a set of torch tip cleaners inside the bore to ensure there are no burrs in drilled holes or in cut capillary tubes, to avoid that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CopesyQT Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 Hello everyone I am back to cause headaches for all you nice people! I have committed to following the Ron reil ez burner with Bordeaux modification and I have still run into issues. Mainly the issue is im getting burning down inside the burner tube, I am using a 1x1-1/4" reducer for both intake and flare with a 1"x6" pipe, I have followed the design as closely as possible other than direct sizings, also I have a 1mm hole in the 1/8th nipple rather than a #60, I'm also using a 0.5-2 psi regulator call me stupid and tell me how to correct it! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMike Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Copesy what pressure are you running that burner at? If I run mine below about 3 psi, the flame will come up to the jet. it needs the velocity of the exiting gas to bring in the air. Mine burns somewhere near the end of the flare. I don't know how critical it is, but the flare is not too hard to make and is said to help with stability. I never tried mine without. And though I have claimed to follow the plans exactly, I have recently discovered that I mistakenly had a 3/4 to 1 inch reducer and though a bit rich, it still works like a champ with a size 59 jet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 28 minutes ago, CopesyQT said: I'm also using a 0.5-2 psi regulator A 0.5 to 2 psi regulator will not provide enough fuel stream velocity for the burner to work properly in most cases. A 0 to 20 psi regulator will probably work, and a 0-30 psi regulator is even better. Did you mean .5 to 2 bar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMike Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 oh, I missed the regulator part. I've got a 0 to 20 I got from Ebay with hose for $13. you get the pressure up and I bet that bad boy will come alive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CopesyQT Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 Yes I do in fact mean 0.5-2 bar, mike It burns quite happily at 0.5bar just inside the burner tube, I've heard there's a burner tube ratio that should be like 9:1 where as I'm below that at 6:1, I have a 1"x12" being delivered soon, and I'm going to dremel the inside of the reducer to make it smoother, any other tips? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 The Riel burner used a 1-1/2" to 3/4" reducer fitting to create air swirl into its mixing tube. My MIG tip version, which he hardily endorsed, uped the reducer size to 2" to 3/4". How does this compare to your reducer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 Yeah, follow the ratios, winging it isn't working for you. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CopesyQT Posted February 3, 2018 Author Share Posted February 3, 2018 My reducer is 1"X1-1/4", wouldn't this create a rich burn rather than burn inside the tube? i plan on using a 1"X1-1/2" when it arrives, and dremeling out the threads to make it nicer for air flow, would the 1x1/4 make an adequate flare? i know my burner tube is shorter than asked for but surely a longer tube will exacerbate my problems also, would you recommend changing to a 3/4" pipe, I'm not looking for a massive burner but 1" was easier to source. Would I be better to have a 3/4" pipe or a wider reducer?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 A three to one reduction ratio is a good goal to reach for; your reducer doesn't have to achieve it to create a strong linear burner, but I don't recommend missing it by a country mile either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CopesyQT Posted February 3, 2018 Author Share Posted February 3, 2018 So for my 1" pipe you'd recommend aiming for 3"x1" reducer? Can I put you in camp "get bigger reducer" rather than "get smaller tube" i think my first port of call is to change from a drilled hole to a MIG rip, obviously this wouldn't work with the Bordeaux modification as the tip would be too far inside the reducer... right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 My first burners were all 3/4" Reil burners with the Bordeaux method of trapping their gas pipes; they had room enough for MIG tips; if they hadn't I would simply have used shorter tips. Your burners are 1" which will need larger, and therefore longer reducers; how would they not have room for the tips? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timgunn1962 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 Copesy, The little DIY minimig welders over here tend to use MB14 MIG tips with a standard M5 x 0.8mm metric coarse thread, so suitable tapping drills (4.2mm) and taps are easy to find. The tips range from 0.6mm to at least 1.0mm wire and the holes will be about 0.15mm bigger than the nominal wire diameter. I have 0.6, 0.8, 0.9 and 1.0mm tips with M5 threads. As well as being small in diameter, the M5 tips are short, so should not have too big an influence on the inlet airflow. If the standard sizes are not ideal, you can always open them out. When I have played with non-standard jet sizes, the starting point has been a MIG tip that is too small, then open it out one drill at a time with a set of 60-80 number drills and a pinvice. The MIG tips are copper and quite grabby, but spinning the pinvice by hand and only going one size at a time has been fine. Do not waste your time trying to tune your burner out of the forge unless you intend to run it out of the forge normally. The forge automatically stabilizes the flame because the forge atmosphere is effectively just a mass of flame. Faffing about with flares and flame retention cups to get a similar effect outside the forge is all well and good, but the big lump on the hot end of the burner just makes mounting the burner more awkward, and prone to burning away or melting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CopesyQT Posted February 4, 2018 Author Share Posted February 4, 2018 3 hours ago, Mikey98118 said: how would they not have room for the tips? It's not that there isn't room, I'm just wondering is it too far into the reducer to work properly, at that point it's almost inside the pipe. Ive just changed from a 1mm hole to a 0.6mm mig tip but I'm still getting burning inside the tube, any suggestions as to why? I currently have a 1-1/2x3/4 reducer coming and plan to switch to it, out of 10 how much do people think that will help? As for tuning inside the forge im still waiting for customs to deliver my HT mortar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 Numerous linear and jet-ejector style burners have found their "sweet spot" to be 1/4 to 3/8" betwen the end of the MIG tip and the beginning of the mixing tube, or small opening on a reducer. Side holes in cross pipes ended up considerably further away, but then holes and tubular bores are apples and oranges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timgunn1962 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 What pressure are you running it at? Burning back down the tube is usually an indication of insufficient flow. The mixture needs to be flowing towards the nozzle faster than the flame moves through the mixture. Normally, I'd say try turning it up. However, without the forge to stabilize the flame, the odds are high that you'll go straight from burning in the tube to flame lift-off as you turn it up. You really need it in the forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 oops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CopesyQT Posted February 6, 2018 Author Share Posted February 6, 2018 2 hours ago, Mikey98118 said: Numerous linear and jet-ejector style burners have found their "sweet spot" to be 1/4 to 3/8" betwen the end of the MIG tip and the beginning of the mixing tube, or small opening on a reducer. Side holes in cross pipes ended up considerably further away, but then holes and tubular bores are apples and oranges. Would you advise moving the mig tip further back as I have it basically inside the burner tube now? 2 hours ago, timgunn1962 said: What pressure are you running it at? Burning back down the tube is usually an indication of insufficient flow. The mixture needs to be flowing towards the nozzle faster than the flame moves through the mixture. Normally, I'd say try turning it up. However, without the forge to stabilize the flame, the odds are high that you'll go straight from burning in the tube to flame lift-off as you turn it up. You really need it in the forge. I can get it lit and "stable" with around 0.1 psi would you recommend cranking to the full 2psi that my regulator can give? My refractory mortar arrives tomorow (5th in memory old England) so I have that to do first possible issues I can think of: 1.burner tube is wrong length 2.burner tube isn't smooth enough insude 3.intake reducer isn't smooth enough inside 4. My tip is too far in the reducer 5. My 1x1-1/4 reducer is not a good enough flare 6. My flame tube being 1" is too big 7. My intake reducer is too small of a change if you believe it's any of these do say something! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CopesyQT Posted February 6, 2018 Author Share Posted February 6, 2018 I can get a regulstor that's 0.5-4 rather than 0.5-2 I know the design calls for 15 but I don't know where I can get that regulstor, would 4 not work? 3 hours ago, timgunn1962 said: What pressure are you running it at? Burning back down the tube is usually an indication of insufficient flow. The mixture needs to be flowing towards the nozzle faster than the flame moves through the mixture. Normally, I'd say try turning it up. However, without the forge to stabilize the flame, the odds are high that you'll go straight from burning in the tube to flame lift-off as you turn it up. You really need it in the forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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