JHCC Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Probably a whole lot easier to get bar stock of the finished dimension, bend it into a circle, and weld (forge, arc, or torch) the joint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elciteeve Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 11 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: 8 x 3.14159 != 12-14 it's 2 ' and you will need to allow extra to hold onto while you try to bend half round the hard way. So the details make the difference and splitting 2" is an extra hassle---can you source half round? would railing cap work for your project? Well my skill at welding is poor, which is why I liked the idea of splitting a 2" round bar, like was done in the video. (each half of the circle would be about 12", so a 12" bar split in half I think would make about an 8" circle, could be +- 3/4 ") I could use whatever material - I have access to a wide array of mild steel, tool steel, stainless, high carbon, low carbon etc. at a relatively low cost. I just want the finished product to be round bar. Which Is why I was originally thinking A36 round bar to start with. 10 minutes ago, JHCC said: Probably a whole lot easier to get bar stock of the finished dimension, bend it into a circle, and weld (forge, arc, or torch) the joint. That's kinda what I was wondering, until I saw this video, then I thought maybe splitting a piece of bar stock might be the hot ticket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 OK I get you now: Split it, Ring it, Round it. Massive amount of work! MUCH cheaper to do it with the right sized rod and just have it welded if you can't do that yourself. There was a welding shop on my block that would do jobs like that for a sixpack on Fridays at quitting time in the summer... Even 1" will be "fun" to bend. I have a 6.5" postvise mounted to a utility pole that's embedded 5' in the subsoil and then concreted in that I could use. Do you have something similar or an acorn table to work on? I would bend a touching helix (wrap it around the right diameter round pipe) and then cut both sections where they overlap and flatten and weld. (standard way of making rings from smaller stock...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 25 minutes ago, Elciteeve said: That's kinda what I was wondering, until I saw this video, then I thought maybe splitting a piece of bar stock might be the hot ticket. Just because Jennifer makes it look easy doesn't mean it is easy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 20 minutes ago, JHCC said: Just because Jennifer makes it look easy doesn't mean it is easy! That my dear friends is the truth, she is a blacksmithing treasure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elciteeve Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said: OK I get you now: Split it, Ring it, Round it. Massive amount of work! MUCH cheaper to do it with the right sized rod and just have it welded Do you have something similar or an acorn table to work on? All I have currently is a 200lb anvil with a good horn on it. I priced out the cost of the round bar, and at about $5.00 for 2 feet of 1" or about $10.00 for 1 foot of 2" I'm not super worried about the price. It sounds like bending the smaller bar will be far easier and quicker though. I haven't priced out a piece of pipe, although I'm pretty sure I could just borrow some 8" round bar from work to use as a template. I just need to find someone to weld it. Thanks for the input! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 I was thinking of time and fuel---which you don't mention....perhaps yours is free? It's a maxim here that "free" stock that takes large amounts of time and forge fuel to work into a usable shape for a project is *not* "free"! Like folks wanting to forge RR rail into 1/2" sq stock; sure it can be done...but... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elciteeve Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 5 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: Cost is time and fuel which you don't mention....perhaps yours is free? It's a maxim here that "free" stock that takes large amounts of time to work into a usable shape for a project is *not* "free"! Like folks wanting to forge RR rail into 1/2" sq stock; sure it can be done...but... Gotcha. My fuel cost is hard to calculate... relatively low. My time is pretty value-less (in terms of dollars) on stuff like this since it's what is fun to me. If it takes me 4 hours to make this thing I will have spent less than $20.00 in materials + fuel which again, since it's entertainment for me. I feel like that's a bargain. Also I'm poor, so even if it takes me 4 hours to do something, I've still saved money because I'm not paying $300.00 for Benchcrafted's stupid (read: completely awesome and I wish I could afford it, but can't) vise. Even if theirs does look prettier. Mine will be mine, which is cool to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted January 3, 2018 Author Share Posted January 3, 2018 Hello @Elciteeve the guys pretty covered the bases.. My question is why do you need it to be a certain size? Rectangular would be much better to start with vs round (1X2X12".. Round stock in order to get it round again you would have to forge in the sliver of a corner on 2 parallel faces (tough to do ).. Remember that round stock flattened becomes an oval and then it becomes a round sided flat.. This oval or round sided flat if you want to make it round again is a big waste of time when you consider starting with rectangular will give you a square bar and then to forge to round is easy.. Now from what I gathered you want a 8" diameter circle? Here is where I will differ from the other guys... I would not hesitate taking on the job if I were using 1"X2" but not 2" round.. Unlike in the video where I use a flat hot chisel I would mark it out cold fairly deeply.. Then I'd use a round edge hot chisel.. You will want a long handle on it as your hand is going to get really hot over that chunk of steel.. Once just about through I would switch to the flat edge chisels to get rid of the choppiness of the round edged chisel.. The reason why I would do it is " It's a short section.. You figure after upsetting both ends to make up for the material you will lose in punch and bend on the ends you will end up with a bar that is total length once upset about 10" long.. And you will then only be slitting about 8" total... That is pretty easy in 1"X 2".. Any larger than a 10 or 12" ring from that sized material I would think twice without the correct tongs and such.. The 200lbs anvil, a vise, a couple of hot cut chisels, a face plate on the anvil, a round punch and one other thing is a drift to drift out the split in the ring.. I used the hardie in the anvil, but for something of this size you will need to drive a larger object through it to open it enough to get it on the horn of anvil... When you open the ring have it as hot as you can the full length... As a beginner, If you do pull this off it would be a major feather in your cap.. Anything over 3/8" for a beginner is a major undertaking and this ring while simple and straight forwards with that size of stock it will be tough.. I would suggest making one of a smaller size and then applying what you learned to the larger ring... I to used to be poor as dirt what I mean to say is dirt even cost to much.. so I get it and it's the reason I became a better blacksmith.. I knew of no short cuts only hard work.. This hard work translates into learning the best way to do something.. I'm excited for you and thanks for the inspiration.. If you have any more questions just hit this thread up... I check it daily.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Good point on the "bragging rights". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elciteeve Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Wow awesome insight. Thanks very much for the advise! And thanks again to everyone else who has provided input also. I see what you mean with starting with 1x2, that makes a lot of sense. Would this same logic apply to the "Wrap a piece of bar around a pipe" method also? The reason for the sizing is, as I stated (sort of) I'm making a vise handle that will look sort of like a ships wheel. The bigger the size the more comfortable it will be to use, and the more force I can apply to clamp the work piece in place. I wanted it round because round is more comfortable than ... not round. Yes the size will be roughly 8" in diameter. (the jaws of the leg vise this is for will be 8" wide so the vise handle can't be larger than 8" or it could interfere with the work piece.) I'm not here to prove anything, although I would love to pull this off, I don't get a lot of time at the forge and I'd prefer to avoid failures so if there's a better / easier way I'm all for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 28 minutes ago, Elciteeve said: Wow awesome insight. Thanks very much for the advise! And thanks again to everyone else who has provided input also. I see what you mean with starting with 1x2, that makes a lot of sense. Would this same logic apply to the "Wrap a piece of bar around a pipe" method also? The reason for the sizing is, as I stated (sort of) I'm making a vise handle that will look sort of like a ships wheel. The bigger the size the more comfortable it will be to use, and the more force I can apply to clamp the work piece in place. I wanted it round because round is more comfortable than ... not round. Yes the size will be roughly 8" in diameter. (the jaws of the leg vise this is for will be 8" wide so the vise handle can't be larger than 8" or it could interfere with the work piece.) I'm not here to prove anything, although I would love to pull this off, I don't get a lot of time at the forge and I'd prefer to avoid failures so if there's a better / easier way I'm all for it. No on the wrap around the pipe.. YOu would use what ever your desired handle thickness will be and then the PI formula in the video would be what you want (less the thickness for welding losses)... If you have an 8" width jawed leg vise.. You will want a lot longer handle than 8" diameter and believe it or not.. Ideally you want a scalloped square or octagonal handle vs round on the handle as you described.. You need something that will fill in the the bends of skin at the joints if you want to put out maximum torque in a circle.. If your vise is an 8" jawed leg vise the handle should be straight and roughly 2ft long out of 1" round stock.. Anything smaller or shorter you will be wasting your time.. If you had a 6" machinist vise I could see using a round ring with spokes to crank on as these vises are not as heavy duty as a leg vise.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elciteeve Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Well, like I said it's going to be sort of like a ships wheel. There will be a handle that runs through this wheel I'm making, which will be straight, and could be about 2' long I just love the look of the ship wheel vise handles, but as I said before I can't afford one so I'm going to try to make one. The wheel will be solidly attached to the vise screw while the cheater bar if you will, will slide through the wheel so it can add leverage, or move out of the way. Wasn't planning on having it be much more than decoration, but I could just as easily make it functional... again thanks for the insight. I'm curious as to why not rounded for the handle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elciteeve Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I should also mention this is for a woodworking Vise. The 6 to 8 in size ship's wheel style Vise handle is pretty common in my experience so I'm wondering why the 2-foot handle seems necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 18 minutes ago, Elciteeve said: I should also mention this is for a woodworking Vise. The 6 to 8 in size ship's wheel style Vise handle is pretty common in my experience so I'm wondering why the 2-foot handle seems necessary. You said leg vise which on a blacksmithing forum means a blacksmithing leg vise.. Which is totally different than a woodworkers toe vise.. I call it a toe vise as it has a little toe that sticks up to catch the edge of the board.. A shorter handle is all that is needed when wood working.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 That makes all the difference. A leg vise refers to a blacksmith vise, not a wood working one. jlps beat me to it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elciteeve Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Sorry things moved faster than I thought they would. I didn't realise how involved this project would be (just the handle that is) I'm building this bench .The leg vise is all I've ever thought to call it, although yeah on a smithing forum... that gets ambiguous. You can get an idea for the wheel I'm trying to make. I'm building everything from the ground up. Cutting down the trees, paying someone to mill the tree into lumber, dimensioning the lumber myself, making a leg vise from raw components basically (I have to buy some things, but I'll make as much myself as possible.) the vise style I'm copying is this. I will be making my own holdfasts as well (one down two to go!) and also a few other fun projects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I guess the clue should have been the 8 inch jaws. A blacksmith leg vise with that large of jaws would be a massive one. Like this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 After seeing the picture of the wheel you are trying to make, the suggestion by JHCC of making a circle by bending round stock would seem to be the easy and simple way to go. I made several rings out of smaller round stock by heating and winding around a pipe about 3" in diameter to form the spiral circles (these were done before I started smithing). Cut with an angle grinder/cutoff disk; flatten ends together; weld. Welding other than forge welding might be more uniform for you. You would need to find some pipe or a jig of suitable diameter and bend/cut your 1" round stock around that. Here is how I made my rings, yours would be much larger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elciteeve Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Great info. Thanks again for all the input. I will be attempting this on saturday so if all goes well i will post results this weekend! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Great, please let us know how it went! Being a lazy curmudgeon; I would have probably sourced a hand wheel from a machinery scrapper or used machinery dealer and gussy that one up. I note that steel is not needed for that use with a woodworker's vise so you could cast a very nice brass one fairly easily in a sand mold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Wow, this has gone quite the distance! To bring it back to jlp, she has stated her reasons for this method of making a ring, and they are valid. many posts are do it "this way" or "that way" because ____. You fill 8n the blank. I'd like to add my two cents to this. There are many ways to do anything. Some easy,some hard. But this is not the point. We are modern Blacksmiths and our personal esthetics creats success or failure far more than "time and material. Each different way of creating an object creats a slightly different look or esthetic. So the more ways you have to create a detail, the more tools you have to create different "looks" for your final project, or more ways to express your final design. So, the more ways we have to create any details actually gives us another design feature with another type of esthetic expression. Simply stated, the more options you have, the more control you have over your product. Learn to be good slitting and drifting, and be as good forgwelding your ring. Other variations,,, take 3/4" round and forge it to 5/8" square I stead of starting with 5/8" square. This is not my idea. Both Kuhn and Yellen did this regularly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted January 8, 2018 Author Share Posted January 8, 2018 On 1/3/2018 at 9:00 PM, Irondragon Forge & Clay said: I guess the clue should have been the 8 inch jaws. A blacksmith leg vise with that large of jaws would be a massive one. Like this one. I have 2 over 8".. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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