antihero51 Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 Hey all, First time poster here. I have been doing some research on the gameco style 1" burners alec steel uses and all i can find on their site is that a single 1" burner would be appropriate for a 300mm diameter by 300m long cylindrical forge. In inches thats 11.8"x 11.8" or a volume of 1290 Cubic inches. This seems like alot considering the other threads ive read here stating that you can get 600-700 CI for each 1" burner. Has anyone used these burners or have an opinion on the matter? I hope to design my new forge around these and dont want to go to big. many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 Good Morning 51, Don't build your own Forge without finding someone close to you that can show you some options. If you build your own Forge, it may be your first, but it won't be your last. Start out safe by using a neighbour's knowledge. If you enter your location in your Avatar, we can where you are, to try to help you. Welcome, Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antihero51 Posted October 14, 2017 Author Share Posted October 14, 2017 Much appreciated and i've added the location. Truth is this is my second forge and the first was sized too large and i couldn't get welding heat. Thus the concerns about total volume per burner. It would be great to see someone else forge for ideas though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Welcome aboard. Why are you shopping for a European burner, it opens a barrel of headaches adapting for American propane fittings. Is there a reason not to put another burner in the forge you have now if it's underpowered? Hook up with the NWBA, they meet in Lakeview and are a darned active group and generally good guys. If you mention my name a membership should only cost you double. Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 On 10/14/2017 at 7:11 PM, Frosty said: Hook up with the NWBA, they meet in Lakeview and are a darned active group and generally good guys. Frosty The Lucky. This is something that I would second, a really sterling bunch of guys and gals, I used to be a member there and travel to the annual conferences till our economy tanked. a knowledgeable, active ,generous and friendly crowd, you won't go wrong there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antihero51 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 Thanks everyone for the info. I'll be sure to post whatever I end of making! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackdawg Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Those burners are typically made to fit a 9kg gas bottle converted to a forge. (as you mention by Gameco in Australia). I've got one one - love it. Local blacksmiths club had a build day and a dozen or so of us built ours under supervision of some experienced members. Corin (Owns Gameco) made a video of how to build one a few years ago and we used it to learn what to do to make ours. (Made the door smaller, otherwise the same) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Ah yes, the 'great' Alec Steel, who can brag, brag, brag louder than a carny barker; and his wonderful burner (according to him). Gee whiz Batman. ain't he great? Of course, he is...NOT. What my eyes see are burners that are too short, with flame retention nozzles that are way too large, and way undersized air entrances; these are quite unlikely to be hot burning, yet he states they are just wonderful. How odd then, that he has no photos of them running in his adds. I mean why wouldn't he want to back up his claims with pictures??? Is there something wrong with the bearded woman, and the snake lady? On the other hand that forge video is one of the best things on YouTube; it gives excellent information, with zero BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasent Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 I'll second what Miley said. There much better burner options out there also second what frosty said the nwba is a great group! Personally I went with a T burner and love them! Simple design that works great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timgunn1962 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 I'm struggling to understand your point, Mikey. 5 hours ago, Mikey98118 said: Ah yes, the 'great' Alec Steel, who can brag, brag, brag louder than a carny barker; and his wonderful burner (according to him). Gee whiz Batman. ain't he great? Of course, he is...NOT. What my eyes see are burners that are too short, with flame retention nozzles that are way too large, and way undersized air entrances; these are quite unlikely to be hot burning, yet he states they are just wonderful. How odd then, that he has no photos of them running in his adds. I mean why wouldn't he want to back up his claims with pictures??? Is there something wrong with the bearded woman, and the snake lady? On the other hand that forge video is one of the best things on YouTube; it gives excellent information, with zero BS. The guy may not be your preferred youtube viewing. He is not mine either. Being irritating is not the same as being wrong (or, as you seem to be implying, dishonest). Why would he want to back up his claims with pictures? He seems to have a reasonably successful business posting youtube videos and there is quite a lot of that video showing him working with those burners, achieving welds which most of us would be entirely happy with. On that basis, he does seem to be backing up his claims. If you are seeing burners that you consider "unlikely to be hot burning", despite the considerable evidence to the contrary, it may be time to re-evaluate what you "know" about burners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdriack Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Hi 51: I had good luck building my own burners using info from Zoeller forge website. The side arm burners there were well documented and illustrated. Search my profile - I posted some pics of my forge when I built it. http://zoellerforge.com/sidearm.html The only problem I really had was that residential gas grill cylinders would pop their free flow safety device and shut down the gas flow when using more than one side burner. I eventually got a 100# bottle with no flow safety in the valve - and have had no problems since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antihero51 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 I do really like the sidearm theory. The gas tank problem is interesting though. Is there a marking or other indicator that would tell you the tank had the free flow safety? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 5 hours ago, timgunn1962 said: If you are seeing burners that you consider "unlikely to be hot burning", despite the considerable evidence to the contrary, it may be time to re-evaluate what you "know" about burners. What an interesting question, coming from you. I believe well know that a good enough forge can help a mediocre burner to produce welding temperatures. Is this true or not? As to a flame photo being unimportant for a burner that is being loudly touted as something wonderful. I have stated this several times before now about other burners. You already seem to have denied this; do you want this chance to change your mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timgunn1962 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 I don't think I've denied that a photo is important or useful, particularly when trying to understand why a burner is not doing what it is intended to do. If you can show me a thread where I have done so, I'll gladly post a retraction. The point I am trying to make is that a video is basically just a large number of photos in rapid succession and that he has posted quite a lot of video showing these burners in use, achieving temperatures that pretty much any smith I know would consider adequately hot. To date, I have not seen any evidence to suggest that any conventional forge, however good, can provide a working temperature in excess of the flame temperature provided by the burner itself.* It therefore seems to me that achieving welding temperatures absolutely requires a "hot burning" burner. 12 hours ago, Mikey98118 said: What my eyes see are burners that are too short, with flame retention nozzles that are way too large, and way undersized air entrances; these are quite unlikely to be hot burning, Yet it seems they are indeed hot-burning. It's fairly hard work going through his youtube videos, but it may prove instructive. Hint: I found that judicious use of the mute button helps, as does skipping through as much as possible of the face-to-camera stuff (old age and intolerance comes to us all). He does make the point (in a video where he builds a forge) that he had used the Gameco burners when he was in Australia and was so impressed by them that he brought them into the UK. Corinkayaker's youtube videos probably have a rather better signal-to-noise ratio when it comes to showing the capabilities of the Gameco burners, though I've not found one that shows the burner being used for welding. His "Heat Treating Blades at Home Accurately Aiming for Minimal Scale and Decarburization" video was about the only thing I could find online that demonstrated the relationship between mixture and temperature, back when I started building forges using very similar "Amal" mixers (I'd mistakenly thought all smiths would already know this stuff). The thing that really impressed me was the precision with which temperature can be controlled with a threaded choke adjuster. I'm not 100% certain, but I think the commercially-made burners with a classical Venturi (reduction, very short throat, 1-in-12 increasing taper) provide a much greater air pressure reduction at the throat than the fixed-diameter tube designs, allowing much smaller air intake areas. They certainly look different to any of the shop-built designs, all of which seem to be variations of the long-throat, fixed-diameter-tube design. * Caveat: The Sandia recuperative forges are the only forges that I am aware of that might be considered to do this. I'd not consider these "conventional" and I very much doubt that the burners used in them would be considered mediocre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc1 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 16 hours ago, Mikey98118 said: Ah yes, the 'great' Alec Steel, who can brag, brag, brag louder than a carny barker; and his wonderful burner (according to him). Gee whiz Batman. ain't he great? Of course, he is...NOT. What my eyes see are burners that are too short, with flame retention nozzles that are way too large, and way undersized air entrances; these are quite unlikely to be hot burning, yet he states they are just wonderful. How odd then, that he has no photos of them running in his adds. I mean why wouldn't he want to back up his claims with pictures??? Is there something wrong with the bearded woman, and the snake lady? On the other hand that forge video is one of the best things on YouTube; it gives excellent information, with zero BS. Interesting ... considering that the guy in question tells you constantly that he does not know how to do this or that and this is his first time. Every second video he says I have no idea how to do this but let's try. I would hardly consider that "bragging". He is cheerful and celebrates what he does, sure. Not something that is common but surely something that is a prosperous attitude. If we had more people celebrating other people's achievements we would have a better world and not a bitter resentful one. As far as the burners, every video Alec posts shows the forge with 2 Gameco burners in action. They seem to heat up steel good enough for damascus and for welding. Not sure what the issue may be. Are there better burners around? Probably true. I suggest to get a contract with this better burners manufacturer and start selling them. I for once would be interested. I think that the real issue is clearly not a technical one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 On 10/15/2017 at 6:36 PM, timgunn1962 said: I don't think I've denied that a photo is important or useful, particularly when trying to understand why a burner is not doing what it is intended to do. If you can show me a thread where I have done so, I'll gladly post a retraction. I agree that flame photos are quite useful for showing what is wrong with a burner's flame. But I add that they are equally useful in showing that there is nothing wrong with a burner's flame. So I repeat about his burner, the same challenge I give for any burner that is touted as wonderful; show me the beef! On 10/15/2017 at 6:36 PM, timgunn1962 said: To date, I have not seen any evidence to suggest that any conventional forge, however good, can provide a working temperature in excess of the flame temperature provided by the burner itself.* Since top welding heat is only around 2300 F, the forge has no need to do so; it only needs to do a good job of preserving the flame's heat and enabling a mediocre burner's secondary flame to combust the remaining fuel within the forge, rather than beyond the exhaust opening, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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