Newbie thread.....

[rangert]

Moved from the Advice to Newbies thread

Hi all, I got my furnace fired up for the first time yesterday. I think I have quite a bit of tuning to do to it but it will work well I think. Single burner design from Devil Forge in Lithuania. no problems with it so good score there. I got my test billet up to dark orange heat and began shaping son with my son. I will say that left hand threads are a bear to get used to My anvil is not large enough to use properly (it is only about 4"x4" square face and is cut to resemble an I sort of) so I am on the hunt for a larger piece of steel to use. If you have any recommendations for inexpensive alternatives, I would appreciate it. A block of cold rolled steel maybe? or is tool steel a better option if I can find it? I was thinking about maybe looking around to see if anyone had an old die set from a full scale industrial forge (the kind used to make automotive parts or whatnot). Also, I need to assemble my work space so that it we can work out of it. So much to do....

By the way, I will start my own thread so as to quit hijacking this one so please look for that one here shortly.

[Exo313]

If you could post a picture of your setup, we all love photos here. And you'll probably get some pointers as to what to improve or ways you can use existing things differently.  As far as a better lump of steel, anything heavy and with a face bigger than the face of your hammer will work.  Hardened steel works better than mild. 

[Desmond Redmon]

 

14 hours ago, rangert said:

If you have any recommendations for inexpensive alternatives, I would appreciate it.

Actually if you can find a local machine shop, ask them if they have any large pieces of scrap you can buy.  Often they have to scrap out a part and are only getting a recycle price for it.  Don't automatically turn down a piece of round steel if it has some good weight.  You can clean the surface with an angle grinder and still have an OK anvil.  If the machine shop doesn't have anything or won't sell it, ask them who they use to recycle their steel and go visit them.  Most likely in IN your looking at Omnisource.  I stopped at an auto salvage yard to get rid of some old bed springs and asked about anvils (I do any time I go to flee markets antique stores etc) and they had a Southern Crescent  80-100lb in nice shape for $3/lb I left it alone since it had a thin steel face on a cast iron body. So just keep asking and you'll stumble on one eventually.

Most steel works easier the closer to the melting temp you get so dark orange might mean you are working harder than you need to.

[ThomasPowers]

May I commend to your attention this description of making an anvil from a forklift tine:

http://www.marco-borromei.com/fork.html

And Yes I am the Thomas mentioned in it.

[Millhand]

 

Nothing to do with this thread but a good wile back, i sold 2 nice 5' forklift tines for 100$  what i would do to go back and not do that sale now...... after watching my father not sell anything, always telling me "you never know when you will need (it)....... i finally learned my lesson. 

[rangert]

Exo313, when I get close to a setup, i will post some pics. Currently still trying to source a couple of items for my "shop", part of the issue is also keeping this compact. I was reading a couple of posts on that that gave me some ideas. Do you all think a regular pressure treated 6x6 on end will put up with the pressure of repeated hammering? Thoughts. Going to Omnisource on Bluff Rd in Indianapolis to check for a block of steel today.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

 Depends on what you put on top and how it's anchored, four 6X6s bolted together to make 12X12 would be more stable.

[Will W.]

If you end up using pressure treated 6x6s, make sure you put a decent size chunk of steel between them and your hot steel you're hammering. Burning pressure treated, or even heating it enough to smoke is VERY bad! Avoid that at all costs. 

[rangert]

I don't intend to do any "beating" at this point (I wouldn't quite say I have any technique so I would not go so far as to say hammering) on a wooden object though I suppose there are times when you might want to for a "softer"touch. Still, I appreciate the heads up, no arsenic twitches for this cub scout. I am on the hunt for a larger piece of steel still though.

[rangert]

Ok, I got my anvil pedestal and due to budgetary constraints, limitation on what I could find and time (the hardest commodity to find), I purchased a ASO (not a good anvil at all) from Harbor Freight. Got my furnace fired up and started trying to learn how to tune my furnace, and move metal on an old piece of 1/2"x 2"Hot rolled steel I had laying around. I got my temp up to around 1600 or 1700 degrees or so I think by the color of the steel. So now comes questions:

First, I think I need to get another 200-300 degrees out of my furnace. My flame was blue but not bright blue. What does this mean for way of tuning? Too much air? Not enough? Also, I read the manufacturers instructions and the nozzle is supposed to be about 1/4"-3/8"up in the body of its tube (the measurement is about 8 MM by instruction) will this have any effect if I change it? I have been told coal is the way to go but I don't have the space for that so needs mean I have to start with gas.

Second, mostly I checked the color chart for steel temp. I know different steels have different forging temps. Hot rolled steel is not ideal to begin with but I figured I would hose up a cheap piece of steel just trying to figure it out rather than waste a better piece of steel on newbie junk. So now that I am here, and hammering away, where would you think I should go next?

Tool wise, I am using an old pair of channel locks for a set of tongs for now but this is not ideal because of the angle. I don't own a welder so welding a "handle" on is sort of out of the question for now. Please let me know what to expect to pay for a better set of tongs and what properties I should look for.

Thanks for the imparting of knowledge.

[JHCC]

 

Hot rolled steel is not ideal to begin with

Hot-rolling is a finishing process, not a material designation. The only difference between hot-rolled and cold-rolled is that the former is rolled hot to its final dimension, and the latter is rolled hot to slightly oversize, allowed to cool, and then rolled cold one last time to give a nice, clean finish. Once it goes back in the forge, there's no difference at all (except that you just wasted the premium you payed for cold-rolled).

 

Tool wise, I am using an old pair of channel locks for a set of tongs for now but this is not ideal because of the angle. I don't own a welder so welding a "handle" on is sort of out of the question for now. Please let me know what to expect to pay for a better set of tongs and what properties I should look for.

The most important thing to look for in tongs is how solidly they will grip the stock. Some designs are only good for one or two sizes and shapes; some are designed to be more "universal". If you have the money, you can expect to pay $30-$120 for a new set of wolf-jaw tongs, which will be very useful. However, keep your eyes open at the flea markets, yard sales, and junk shops -- I just picked up a really nice pair of flat-bit tongs (perfect for small stock) for five bucks at the most pathetic flea market you've ever seen.

[Frosty]

Don't worry about tongs for now, work stock long enough you can hold the cool end in your hand. There are a lot of thing you can make that way and learn process and techniques. Making things is a LOT less frustrating once you have how to make steel behave down pat.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

Why is coal the way to go?  A whole lot of the pro knifemakers weld in gas forges and I've managed to melt steel in mine accidentally. (generally less problems with the neighbors too)

Big difference between hot rolled 1018 and hot rolled D2 (though you probably have A-36...)

How big is your burner, how big is your forge and how is it lined?

Was the anvil you got the 55# one for around US$65?  I just sold a 72# (8"x8"x4") solid chunk of steel to a starting smith for $20 (with a 6 hardy hole chunk of dozer wear plate thrown in)  I'm taking a new smith to the scrapyard tomorrow so he can buy his own directly from the source cheaper.

BTW: Did you ask at any of the IBA meetings where you could  pick up stuff locally?  I find that that generally works better than  asking the world where to get stuff local to my area.

As for tongs, my favorite for knifemaking, a set of short snub nosed shoeing tongs, cost me $1.50 at a fleamarket.  In general I buy most any pair at $5 and under and have bought a very nice commercially made large pair for $12 once but that was HIGH DOLLAR for cheap me---shoot i bought a titanium pair of tongs for $10 at Quad-State one year...

 

[rangert]

Ok, so to answer the questions given me about the last post. Time is a huge factor for me as I travel for a living so opportunities to spend time scouting out things is at a severe premium. Also, I have not looked for any IBA meetings locally for the same reason. That said, when I do have time, it  does come in "chunks". I do have the desire to begin bladesmithing (Ihave a couple of knife designs I can't seem to find on the open market for hunting and utility knives) but figured I should work on different projects first to beef up skills that I need to "figure out".

So I spoke to a guy making knives and swords and he suggested coal was better because of the ability to avoid carbon loss and some other reasons. The same guy also gave me some ideas about where and how to source good knife steel (old saw blades etc.) and that has been echoed elsewhere. He was a wealth of help for the half hour we spoke but it also opened up more questions. For the reasons you mentioned above, I still intend to use gas. My furnace is a single burner tube design that can is lined with 1 1/2 - 2" Kaowool or some other ceramic wool and has a 1" firebrick floor.

I think the hot rolled I am working with is maybe 1018 or some other mild steel. It welds nicely (back when I was welding a lot) but it is a little "gummy" to machine and drill (not like stainless though). I figured that might be due to low carbon content or maybe low silicon content. Not sure there. I believe when you add silicon to cast iron it improves machinability and grain so figure steel probably shows the same property. I got that information from an old foundry manual I read once. It seemed pretty much on the dime so I don't doubt its veracity. I am sure you all will correct me if I am wrong!  

[DocRich65]

Okay, While asking around about anvils at a recent flea Market, I ran in to an older gentleman who overheard me ask very amateur questions about anvils. He kinda chuckled and told me to not spend too much money all at once or in one place. He told me that since I am rather short and compact (bit of a smaller feller ain't you?), what I need to use will be different than most other folks. He said just to get an old piece of scrap rail, some tongs, a ball peen hammer and some scrap brass. He told me to practice moving metal with the brass. He said Brass is easy to practice with, doesn't need to be heated and if you can shape cold brass, you can shape hot steel. He said it would be a good way to figure out anvil height, how heavy a hammer I am good with, and lay out an idea of a shop. Then I'll know enough to start getting equipment. He said years ago he would have recommended a coal forge because material was easy to come by. Now, he said that most neighborhoods won't tolerate coal and to consider gas. It's easier to get gas, and there is less smoke to offend the neighbors. It sounds like good advice, but I would like some other thoughts as well. Anyone else start with Brass?

[Charles R. Stevens]

The only difrence your hight makes is in the hight of your anvil stand and forge, I'm 6'2", I set my anvil hight at 32", so my stand is tall, as are my forges. If your 5' or even 3', the type of anvil or forge dosnt change, just the hight of the stand. 

His advice about finding a chunk of rail is sound, but limiting, any solid hunk of steel will do, even a sledgehammer head.  

 this link should open your mind to the possibilities. 

Forges arnt magic either, just a box of dirt with a hole dug in it and an air supply. 

As to forging brass, I would look at copper myself, but cost being a thing, and liking to play with fire, it's steel for me!

anything I can do to help you find an anvil or desighn and build a forge just ask. 

[ThomasPowers]

Generally you can find steel cheap or free, but brass or copper are $$$$$. I'd learn to work hot steel if what I wanted to do is to work hot steel.  Shoot I've forged out of a campfire before, racking hot coals over to the side where I had a homemade single action bellows set up.

[rangert]

Ok, so after my last test, I think I added about 100 degrees to my temperature by closing off the back and front of my forge with some firebrick, I also messed with the air intake on my burner and learned how to produce a reducing atmosphere. I also was able to thin my half inch billet to about 3/16", make it spoon shaped and flatten it back out. I think this piece of steel will become a spoon for my flux when I start trying to learn forge welding. So for now, I am able to move metal but my question is this:

On a typical heat, how long do you typically have to hammer away at it before you have to return it to the furnace and reheat the metal. I figured I was getting about 4-5 minutes of hammer time max before it was too cool to continue. I imagine that is probably a mass issue as well as heat so just to be clear I began with a 1/2"x 2"x 6 inch billet roughly.

Also, I am leaving a ton of hammer marks so, I assume that comes down to hammer control. Any hints or tips?

[Will W.]

 

On a typical heat, how long do you typically have to hammer away at it before you have to return it to the furnace and reheat the metal

That depends on a lot of factors, including size of the stock, temperature that it was brought up to, ambient air temperature, whether it is in contact with a heat sink or not (the anvil) and for how long, etc, etc. Im sure even humidity has an effect. Its very hard to place a specific number on that, but you can usually figure on a few minutes before it loses all glowing heat. 

 

 

Also, I am leaving a ton of hammer marks so, I assume that comes down to hammer control. Any hints or tips?

Yup. Thats all hammer control. Make sure your anvil is at the proper height for YOU so that your hitting the steel with the flat of the hammer, and its not pitched towards the front of the hammer or the rear. Many other smiths may consider my anvil too high for their personal tastes, but its right where its comfortable (and effective) for me. 

Take your time with your hammer blows. Well placed, accurate, firm hits, are much more efficient and effective than trying to smite the steel with all of your force. Using an appropriately weighted hammer is a must. Try to place your blows so they overlap each other (the middle of your hammer strikes the edge of your last hit.)

 

[rangert]

So I have a collection of several hammers. One of which is a 3 pound cross peen. That seems to be my favorite so far. I also have a 3 pound engineers hammer that seems to do a decent job and my son has a 3 pound drilling hammer he likes because it has a shorter handle and he can use it better. I also used a large ball peen that I have for rounding the spoon before I flattened it back out.

[ThomasPowers]

Also make sure that the hammer faces are dressed correctly.

Will; I found it amusing that you said "it's all hammer control" and then went into having the anvil set up correctly for the user...

So it's Hammer control---learned from experience; Proper set up---anvil at the right height for the user; and Hammer being properly dressed; but hammer control is the heavy hitter as an experienced smith can work at an anvil that's a bit off or with a hammer that's not dressed for smithing very well.

[Will W.]

 

Will; I found it amusing that you said "it's all hammer control" and then went into having the anvil set up correctly for the user...

Yet another example of common vernacular getting in the way of truth and detail. When i said "all" i suppose it was an exaggeration. What i wrote and what i meant were different things. Apologies for any confusion. I really need to learn to proofread what i write.

 

 

[JHCC]

 

When i said "all" i suppose it was an exaggeration. What i wrote and what i meant were different things. Apologies for any confusion. I really need to learn to proofread what i write.

Umm...that would be "When I said "all", I suppose it was an exaggeration. What I wrote and what I meant were different things. [...] I really need to learn to proofread what I write."

 

[ThomasPowers]

Perhaps I should lapse into my hill folk vernacular and see how long it is before "someone" blows a gasket...My wife does my proofreading when it counts; otherwise I am at the mercy of the built in browser tools and the voices in my head who often seem to vote on spelling issues and I am not sure they are voting to correct them!

[JHCC]

Hey, man; he opened the door.