Forge Build

[ThomasPowers]

And it is useful to know where they are getting stuff that has no local supplier.  It's the suppliers people don't usually think of that can be a big help---like boiler repair places.

[Square Nail]

On the bright side this thing gets hot inside in a hurry! The down side is obvious in the next few pictures. My forge is outside but fairly well protected from wind so hopefully that doesn't come into play. At this time I am only running at about 2 psi. I have cranked it up to 5 psi and it just magnifies the same issues shown here.

This is just a few seconds after starting

This is about a minute after starting

This is about 2 minutes after starting

The same time as the last pic just a few seconds later

[Frosty]

How hot does it get? It looks slightly rich about how I like but it might be burning a little lime in the refractory.

How many cu/in is the chamber? 

How does it work for you, heat any steel with it yet?

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Square Nail]

I heated a small piece of leaf spring about 8' long and it turned almost the whole thing red in less than five minutes. But that was before the kastolite and metrikote. I haven't put anything in since then because I'm still waiting for the lining to cure. So I haven't really pushed it yet. It's only been a few days so just wanted to make sure it was good and dry before using. Turn it on long enough to see the difference after making changes to the burners 

There is 361 cubic inches in the chamber. 4 3/4 X 4 3/4 X 16.

 

[Frosty]

You're in dry country 24 hrs. should do the trick.

361 cu/in is in the upper limits for a single 3/4" burner, 2 are serious overkill even with the length. There's where the dragon's breath is coming from, there just isn't room in the forge for all that fire. 

Try getting it HOT then turning off one burner. One end will be hotter than the other but you can only work on so much at a time and when you need full length heat light the other one.

It's going to be a screaming HOT forge.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Square Nail]

4 minutes ago, Frosty said:

You're in dry country 24 hrs. should do the trick.

361 cu/in is in the upper limits for a single 3/4" burner, 2 are serious overkill even with the length. There's where the dragon's breath is coming from, there just isn't room in the forge for all that fire. 

Try getting it HOT then turning off one burner. One end will be hotter than the other but you can only work on so much at a time and when you need full length heat light the other one.

It's going to be a screaming HOT forge.

Frosty The Lucky.

Thank you sir! I will post the results as I try them!

[Frosty]

My pleasure, you're welcome.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Square Nail]

Frosty I have played around with the burners some more and after pausing to think of where I started and what I've done, with what you said, decided to reverse the direction I had moved the flares. Results are a much improved flame and was able to increase to 5 psi with no more dragon breath than with 2 psi. with both burners going and much diminished dragon breath with just 1 burner. I think one final adjustment tomorrow when it is cool enough to handle will hit about as good as I get. I heated a chunk of leaf spring to workable color in about five minutes from start up. Not being a 100% sure of what color is need for welding i was at what i would call yellow in less than 10 minutes. Will get a couple more pics tomorrow! 

[Frosty]

Sounds like you got IT cornered. Yellow is usually plenty hot to weld depending on the steel and your technique. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Square Nail]

After adjusting the burner's mig tip in inincrements of 1/32" this is where I ended up. I am running at 5 psi.

The piece of steel is 5/16 X 2 X 8

after 3 minutes

after 6 minutes

after 7 minutes

after 8 minutes

 

[Frosty]

Still a LITTLE rich maybe, MAYBE. I'm thinking you need to close up the openings some, it should be getting hotter but 8 minutes isn't that much time with two big openings like that. Let it get hot before putting the steel in, that'll give you a better idea of time to working temp. You aren't going to start the forge for every piece are you?

Looking good. My Kastolite has a good HOT 20 hrs. on it and the dragon's breath is still orange though not as much as when it was new.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Square Nail]

14 minutes ago, Frosty said:

Still a LITTLE rich maybe, MAYBE. I'm thinking you need to close up the openings some, it should be getting hotter but 8 minutes isn't that much time with two big openings like that. Let it get hot before putting the steel in, that'll give you a better idea of time to working temp. You aren't going to start the forge for every piece are you?

Looking good. My Kastolite has a good HOT 20 hrs. on it and the dragon's breath is still orange though not as much as when it was new.

Frosty The Lucky.

The back is closed and the front is about 4" square. Good point about starting hot! I'm at 5 psi should I amp it up a bit?

[Frosty]

You should experiment till it performs like you need or it won't. I wouldn't be making changes to the burners till I found out it's high and low operating range. 

Is there a reason you want to run it at such a low pressure? Sure it's nice to have a low flame velocity but that's only to keep it in the forge longer.

The burners I've been running for what 15+ years in the shop forge run around 9psi at the low end and melt hard fire brick at about 17psi. It blows serious dragon's breath, you do not work at it in short sleeves. Those are old burners in an old forge all soon to be retired and I don't hold it out as something to try for. I've never even tried to make a burner run at such low pressure, maybe 7-8 at the low end.

You guys have to STOP WORRYING ABOUT PSI. The ONLY reason I have a gauge on my forges is so I can repeat forge temperature and conditions easily, NO OTHER REASON. It makes no difference what so ever what psi someone elses burners work well under. THE ONLY PSI that matters is the one that makes YOUR burners work properly.

I'm not dumping on you and I'm more than happy to help you out but your last few questions aren't something I'm into. Mike tunes burners by moving the flare, not me. Worse you keep coming back to pressure and that's up to you to find, I have nothing to tell you about it. psig It doesn't matter, you'd be making things at the anvil long ago if there wasn't a gauge at all. How about taking it off?

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Square Nail]

8 hours ago, Frosty said:

You should experiment till it performs like you need or it won't. I wouldn't be making changes to the burners till I found out it's high and low operating range. 

Is there a reason you want to run it at such a low pressure? Sure it's nice to have a low flame velocity but that's only to keep it in the forge longer.

The burners I've been running for what 15+ years in the shop forge run around 9psi at the low end and melt hard fire brick at about 17psi. It blows serious dragon's breath, you do not work at it in short sleeves. Those are old burners in an old forge all soon to be retired and I don't hold it out as something to try for. I've never even tried to make a burner run at such low pressure, maybe 7-8 at the low end.

You guys have to STOP WORRYING ABOUT PSI. The ONLY reason I have a gauge on my forges is so I can repeat forge temperature and conditions easily, NO OTHER REASON. It makes no difference what so ever what psi someone elses burners work well under. THE ONLY PSI that matters is the one that makes YOUR burners work properly.

I'm not dumping on you and I'm more than happy to help you out but your last few questions aren't something I'm into. Mike tunes burners by moving the flare, not me. Worse you keep coming back to pressure and that's up to you to find, I have nothing to tell you about it. psig It doesn't matter, you'd be making things at the anvil long ago if there wasn't a gauge at all. How about taking it off?

Frosty The Lucky.

 

My Humble apology Frosty, I guess I was laboring under a false impression. Many threads seem to be talking about the "perfect flame", which may or may not be possible and the attempts people make to get there, and I assumed when you mention trimming the mig tip it was to the same end. Some how this equated to dragon breath being bad and not very desirable. Thus backing down the pressure to reduce it. Not that there was any desire to run a low pressure rig. Having never seen a T burner forge in operation and seeing the nature of the beast, and lacking the experience to know better, I was trying to attain the unattainable.  Thanks for your help, and rest assured there will be no more stupid questions from me!

[Frosty]

No need for apologies at all, I wasn't trying to dump on you but it sure came across that way. 

I get tired of answering the same myth inspired questions. There is NO SUCH THING as a perfect flame, anvil, type of steel, etc. Some early makers thoughts, ideas, opinions and methods have become a standard. The low psi burner standard started with Ron Reil and the philosophy of "If a little is good a LOT must be better" has taken it to a ridiculous extreme. 

Nobody can tell you how to make a "perfect" anything. The best, BEST I can do is make suggestions as to how to get better performance from something. In your case T burners in a forge. I've also said this many times, the T burner is just easy to make with minimal tools ad shop skills, it's a long way from a high performer and perfect isn't even on it's horizon. 

Mike and I are partly to blame, we keep talking about the perfect flame and the burner necessary to produce it. We're skyballing concepts, NOT talking about burners that exist. Two guys letting their imaginations run, two guys with different views and approaches. We can confuse anybody. 

I am FAR from unhappy or tired of talking with you about your burners and forge. I've learned a lot from how much we've confused you our skyballing. You ONLY need to know how to get your burners performing. Our brainstorming doesn't do you any good at all.

Mike already took skyballing elsewhere and pointed you back here, he's smarter than I am and realized the mistake faster. 

If ANY apologies are due it's mine to you for getting so sidetracked and then actually SENDING a post written out of frustration. I delete a lot, I edit every post but I have days I don't edit enough. 

We good? Frosty The Lucky.

 

[blacksmith-450]

49 minutes ago, Frosty said:

If ANY apologies are due it's mine to you for getting so sidetracked and then actually SENDING a post written out of frustration. I delete a lot, I edit every post but I have days I don't edit enough. 

We good? Frosty The Lucky.

I spent almost 10 years on a wine forum. What can you find more subjective than the taste of people .....??

Frosty, I understand that answering questions that have been asked several times is frustrating. I left my position as a forum administrator for this reason.

On the other hand, I thank you for your patience and generosity. I think I get a flame «almost perfect» with yours advices and I thank to you and Mike for that.... This is for the technical side.

But I also learned to detect the level of «good enough». And that is an very important step in my progression... that the real live side !

At all new like me, please use more your eyes to read at first than your mouth to ask .... I guarantee you will go faster ! 

 

My 2¢

[Square Nail]

Of course we're good Frosty! Thanks!

 

[Frosty]

5 hours ago, Square Nail said:

Of course we're good Frosty! Thanks!

 

Thank you.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Looking at the one clear flame photo, I would make one last helpful change. Move the front burner, that has a lightly reducing flame to the back of the forge, and move the back burner that has a neutral flame to the front of the forge. This allows more distance for the secondary flame to burn off, and insures that the fuel that didn't burn, must pass in front of a neutral flame before it exits the forge. Better results all the way around for a small additional effort, yes?

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

If you have to add your 2¢ and someone will give you a penny for your thoughts, who gets the extra penny?

[ThomasPowers]

Entropy; it ALWAYS takes its cut.

[Square Nail]

1 hour ago, Mikey98118 said:

Looking at the one clear flame photo, I would make one last helpful change. Move the front burner, that has a lightly reducing flame to the back of the forge, and move the back burner that has a neutral flame to the front of the forge. This allows more distance for the secondary flame to burn off, and insures that the fuel that didn't burn, must pass in front of a neutral flame before it exits the forge. Better results all the way around for a small additional effort, yes?

Thank you Mike! Looks much better with that change!

[Mikey98118]

You are more than welcome Square Nail. do weuns get to look too?

[Square Nail]

The forge is outside so will take pics tonight when it isn't so bright out! Thanks again!

[Mikey98118]

I'm hoping that the photo will be something of a revelation to other folks, about how big differences don't always need big changes; looking forward to seeing the next photo.