Problem tuning the T-Burner

[blacksmith-450]

I did my homework before asking my question by reading all the topics on the forum about this problem

I followed carefully the instructions to make my 3/4 T-Burner. The steps are so simple that it is difficult to go wrong.

Nevertheless, despite several attempts to adjust the MIG point, I’m not able to have the complete blue flame.

I tried the coupler, bell reductor and even without a flare, nothing changes.  I run with 6-10psi.

The only possible place I missed is to perfectly align the tip of the MIG. Yet I'm sure that i’m in the dead center, maybe I made it a little crooked when I made the threads.

I attached a video to give you an idea of my result to date.

If you told me that the only problem is the MIG point adjustment, I’ll be patient and try again !

Thank you for your help

IMG_1933.MOV

[Buzzkill]

You don't show us the T end, but the whistling/chirping sound usually indicates that the flame is igniting inside the tube rather than at the end.  To me it doesn't seem like enough air is being pulled in with the fuel.  Assuming you are using the right MIG tip and the alignment is reasonably close two possibilities come to mind.  The first is that the MIG tip may need to be trimmed back some so that more air enters the tube with the gas.  The second is that you may not have a good seal between the MIG tip threads and the flare fitting.  If you have a leak there you'll end up with more fuel than desired.  That's my two cents, but there are others on here with more experience than I have and they may have better info for you.

[Frosty]

Next time take some stills, that was about 60meg of uninformative bandwidth.

Forget what psi you THINK it's supposed to operate on, it will decide what's right.

By the sound it's burning in the tube and the yellow fluttery flame says it's WAY too rich. 

Take a pic in the air intake. 

Take a shot of the whole burner fuel lines included. No need to show the regulator, gauge, valve, etc.

List the specs. Tube dia. & L. "T" dimensions. Jet dia.

Frosty The Lucky.

[blacksmith-450]

Tonight, I will try again with a shorten MIG tip, maybe I just didn't cut enough.  I will also check for leak.

I'll take pictures of everything.    

 

Thanks,

[Buzzkill]

It might be a good idea to post the pics before tinkering.  If I read a little into what Frosty said I think it's running rich far more than just trimming the MIG tip a little will fix.  Definitely check for leaks at the MIG tip threads though.  A significant leak has the possibility of causing the burner to run far too rich, as does a "T" with openings that are too small or a MIG tip with way too big of an orifice.

[stockmaker]

MIG Tip Alignment.  From experience I can tell you it is possible to tap the T Fitting/Brass Bushing at a slight angle. You can check that by watching the end of the MIG tip as you screw the bushing/w/MIG Tip into the T Fitting, it should not bobble.  I am talking about the treads you tap into the T Fitting as well as the new treads into the brass bushing for the MIG tip, if the end of the MIG tip does not screw in straight while you watch, one or both  holes are tapped at an angle. I really don't know how accurate this alignment has to be, but if it is close to perfect it is one less thing to troubleshoot. 

[blacksmith-450]

First of all, thank you for your answers.

Secondly, it was the first and last time I put a video on the forum and I apologize for that. If the moderators want to remove it, it does not bother me at all.

I inspected well for the leaks and indeed, there was one on the tip of the MIG.

Then I knew I was probably on the rich side but I didn’t imagine that much. I cut half the tip to get an acceptable result. I was either impatient or greedy. LOL !!!

Although Frosty said that the bell reductor was not the best flare, in my case it seems to work well. In any case, I do not think it is decisive in the fine tuning.

Thank you very much to all of you, I will continue the final stages,  you put me all on the right track.

 

Specs:

Tee: 1X1 - chase 3/4

Nipple 3/4 X 6 in.

MIG TIP .035

PSI: the flame decide!

Flare: bell reducer 1 to 3/4 (for the moment)

 

[Michael Cochran]

May I ask why you tuned your burner outside of the forge? If I had to guess it'll run differently when you do put it in the forge.

[blacksmith-450]

I started on the bench because I was very far from the desired result. The final tuning will be made in the forge.

 

[jwilson645]

May have nothing to do with your issues but something I noticed was the bell reducer.  This is quoted from Frosty's write up " No, a bell reducer does NOT made a good flare, they expand much to abruptly and induce bad turbulence."

 

Also looks like your mig tip is crooked in the T.

[Frosty]

Thanks for the still shots. I was cranky I'd just had to download over 100meg to see about 45 seconds of a dog doing not much interesting. Deb my wife is a trainer and we both get stuff from folk with questions.

So, please don't think you shouldn't post videos to Iforge, they're just not helpful in some cases. The audio said a lot though.

J is right, the mig tip is crooked, is the brass fitting loose? Recently I had to start using 1/4" flare couplers rather than my preference of 1/8" FPT - 1/4" flare fittings because the new batch has too large an ID to thread 1/4"-28 for mig tips.

What I've discovered is the 1/4" flare fitting has an unthreaded lag before it hits the hex "nut". A 1"x3/4" T fitting is pretty darned thin where we're drilling and threading it. So thin the brass flare fitting moves when being tapped for the mig tip.

I helped a club member make a T burner last Tuesday and he's having trouble tuning it too.

I think there are two things going on here. #1 your jet isn't straight. #2 it's certainly too long as it is but you need to straighten it to tune it. Next time you remove it try putting a 3/8" flat washer between the fitting and the T and check if it's a little straighter.

Mike has made me look at examples of T burners using bell reducers for a flare that are mking a near ideal flame and velocity. Just tune it with the flare you choose. I withdraw my statement about bell reducers being wrong. I was wrong.

I apologize for being short in my last reply, not your fault.

Frosty The Lucky.

[blacksmith-450]

Thanks Frosty.

This is the 1/4" flare coupler that you use now ?

[Frosty]

I wish. the ones I got at the local HVAC supply have a gap in the threads before the hex on both sides. The T is only probably 3 maybe 4 threads thick if the side of the fitting on the right were in the T there's be maybe 2 threads holding it.

I'm going to make a jig to tap fittings true. Get the T drille and tapped straight and the jet will align if it's straight too.

This wasn't an issue with the tapered pipe thread when you screwed the fitting in it seated solid and secure so tapping for the mig tip was no issue.

Darned life keeps changing. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[jwilson645]

On 4/29/2017 at 8:00 PM, Frosty said:

 

On 4/28/2017 at 3:15 PM, Frosty said:

 Recently I had to start using 1/4" flare couplers rather than my preference of 1/8" FPT - 1/4" flare fittings because the new batch has too large an ID to thread 1/4"-28 for mig tips.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

Wish I had seen this before I purchased the 1/8 mpt x 1/4 flares. I picked them up yesterday from Grainger and thought the the ID looked a little large but haven't yet tried the mig tip because I haven't yet sourced the Tweco .035 ones yet.

[Michael Cochran]

3 hours ago, jwilson645 said:

Wish I had seen this before I purchased the 1/8 mpt x 1/4 flares. I picked them up yesterday from Grainger and thought the the ID looked a little large but haven't yet tried the mig tip because I haven't yet sourced the Tweco .035 ones yet.

I might can help you out with some tips. Text me this evening and I'll see what I have in stock. 

[jwilson645]

3 hours ago, Michael Cochran said:

I might can help you out with some tips. Text me this evening and I'll see what I have in stock. 

Thanks Mike. I have some Lincoln brand tips for my welder somewhere. Don't know if they're the same as Tweco or not. Haven't yet found them since the move. 

[Crowley]

On 4/28/2017 at 4:15 PM, Frosty said:

Recently I had to start using 1/4" flare couplers rather than my preference of 1/8" FPT - 1/4" flare fittings because the new batch has too large an ID to thread 1/4"-28 for mig tips.

What I've discovered is the 1/4" flare fitting has an unthreaded lag before it hits the hex "nut". A 1"x3/4" T fitting is pretty darned thin where we're drilling and threading it. So thin the brass flare fitting moves when being tapped for the mig tip.

 

Thanks for posting this, Frosty.  I was having a lot of trouble tapping the fittings I picked up locally at Menards.  It seemed the ID was slightly too large to get a good tap (the MIG tip would move slightly when screwed in.

I ended up buying some from an online supplier.  Here's a link:  Supply House.com.  The brand is Jones Stevens and they tapped much better than the ones I picked up at Menards.  Just sharing for the other newbies that are starting out like I am.

[Frosty]

Too bad there isn't a large enough market, a guy could just have them purpose made and sell the correct mig tips to go with. Aw heck just make adjustable jets and skip mig tips. 

Frosty the Lucky.

[blacksmith-450]

I continued to try to get a perfect neutral flame.  Here's my last result.  Now I think that I'm ready to it in the forge and give the final touch.

 

Comments ?

[ThomasPowers]

My Opinion: Yes however: it's characteristic outside of the forge may be little like the same burner inside the forge.  So tuning it outside the forge is rather a waste of time.