Wooden R.R.Rail Vertical Stand Design Concepts

[CTBlades]

So after my post about R.R. Rail anvils and reading even more about using the rail as a post anvil I decided to go with the post method and now need to build a stand.
 I set out this morning to design a stand. The first picture (below) is my concept #1 which would require drilling the flange of the rail for mounting. This would be a more permanent set up. After a rather lengthy brainstorming session with our very own king of chill Frosty I worked out a second design with the words "why do it if you don't need too" still in my ear. This one is much simpler to build and allows for a quick change rotation of the rail itself so that both ends can be modified for different applications, many of which are featured in a great post by Charles Stevens. Found Here

So what do you guys think, number one or number two? Any additions you think might or mods that you think would work?

Note: I have the 12"x12"x32" beam (which happens to be my strike zone) on hand as well as the rest of the materials shown. Yes its another low cost/ no cost build. The post itself makes for a nice place to hang some tools i.e. hammers, tongs etc.

[Daswulf]

I'd go with #2. I like versatility. 

[CTBlades]

Yes sir I agree,  I do as well. The more options the better. 

[TwistedCustoms]

I would up the size of the plate the track is resting on. The lags are only going to keep the anvil from shifting. Your hammer blows will be directed down into that plate and the wood below it. 1/4" will distort in short order. Look around at local shops and see if someone will water jet a small piece of 1/2" AR plate or better yet find a 12" length of forklift tine to weld on the bottom. Either way get a beefy mass under it and that design will work great.

[Charles R. Stevens]

4 spikes and a track plate will save you a bit of work. If you cut the spikes off you can either drill grew them and use the double ended lag screws (lag on one end and machine screws on the other) or you can leave them long, drill and tap them and use threw bolts. If one is real carefull you could press/drive the spikes and leave space to slip the rail down but I think that's going to be a real PITA. 

[TwistedCustoms]

Great idea on the track plate Charles, I have one under the foot of my big post vise and didn't even think of it. Easy to find and keeps the whole project on theme to boot.

[CTBlades]

3 hours ago, TwistedCustoms said:

I would up the size of the plate the track is resting on. The lags are only going to keep the anvil from shifting. Your hammer blows will be directed down into that plate and the wood below it. 1/4" will distort in short order. Look around at local shops and see if someone will water jet a small piece of 1/2" AR plate or better yet find a 12" length of forklift tine to weld on the bottom. Either way get a beefy mass under it and that design will work great.

Yea sir I would agree that a thicker plate is in order. The 1/4 inch is just something I have on hand ATM. The beauty of the slide setup is that I can add the thicker plate when I get one or even raise the post several inches for different applications.

3 hours ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

4 spikes and a track plate will save you a bit of work. If you cut the spikes off you can either drill grew them and use the double ended lag screws (lag on one end and machine screws on the other) or you can leave them long, drill and tap them and use threw bolts. If one is real carefull you could press/drive the spikes and leave space to slip the rail down but I think that's going to be a real PITA. 

Wow never thought of using a plate. Then again I never knew they existed lol. Fortunately I do have a freind that works for the railroad so I'm sure he can pick one up somewhere along the way. I'll give him a shout tomorrow. That will also add some weight to the block hmmm!

[Charles R. Stevens]

Then grab two and some sleeper clips as well. 

 

[CTBlades]

Ok but know I need to figure out what they are. I'll google that one.

[Lou L]

Free is always better for sure, but if you can't get the track plate you can get anything from 1/2" to 2" or thicker in A36 in the sizes you need at Logan.  

I agree with the others on flexibility.  It has served me well.  Personally, as I think about, I think I'd go with the thickest bottom plate I could to avoid intense ringing and noise.  The thin plate would be too tinny I think.

[CTBlades]

True enough Lou, the heavier plate would surely reduce nose. I will be looking into a heavier piece when I have the chance.

The rail plate will serve as a mount attacked to the upright beam section for added weight and stability. And ease of alignment when flipping the rail.

Where was this meet?

[Lou L]

The NEB Fall meet was at Morrel Metalsmiths in Massachusets this weekend.  I was only able to Saturday but had a great time.  Got to meet a bunch of people.  My favorite moment was hanging out with Bill Scheer (of Mystic Seaport fame) and watching an excellent beginning blacksmith seminar by Leigh Morrel.  I asked him, "Bill, are you learning anything new?"  He turned to me slowly and said with a wry grin, "I just like hearing it said in a different way."

 

I fully suggest you join NEB and go to the Spring meet.  I'll be there for sure.

[CTBlades]

Great thanks, I'll be looking into for sure. It would be great to see Bill again.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Track plate is 1/2" plus in the center. If your budy can score you 2 then you have both the back and the bottom, a third mounted on top of the upright with peices of spike for clamps will make a mount to use the rail horizontal for straitening and will serve as a 7/8" hardy/stake plate. 

As to sleeper clips, they knock on the rail flange and keep the rail from creeping along the sleepers (ties) wile the ballast (gravel) keeps the sleepers from creeping along the ground. They make desent knife and tool blanks when straitened. Then again if you cut the flange, web and head off the rail you have exelent tool blanks as well. 

[CTBlades]

Thank you Charles, most appreciated info for sure. I will ask for three plates and a mess of sleeper clips and see what he can do. My wife also reninded me that one of her childhood friends whom I've met is the head electrician for the railroad so I have another direction to check into as well. Thanks so much again. 

[Charles R. Stevens]

Rail lines uses some good steel, better they gift us some than let it all be made into "T" posts, bed frames and Mexican rebar

[CTBlades]

Very true. There are actually a lot of lines out this way that have been shut down and tore up. The rails and all scrapped by the companies....sad really!

[JHCC]

I second the track plate suggestion, with a few additional considerations.

First, the glue joint between the two blocks of wood is not going to withstand the stress of repeated hammer blows. If you notch the edge of the base plate into the vertical piece, it will distribute that stress between the two blocks and away from the glue joint.

Second, recess the vertical plate into the vertical block, so that the bottom of the flange is supported by both the plate and the block. Less wobble = better stability = more rebound. (You can also jam a thin wedge between the flange and the top of the block, for even more rigidity.)

Third, in addition to whatever spiking or bolting you use for the rail plates, put a layer of silicone caulk between the plate and the wood. Not only will this help secure them in place, but it will dampen vibration and excess noise. Better for your ears.

Something like this:

(Not to scale; moving the vertical plate a bit higher than shown would probably be better.)

[CTBlades]

1 hour ago, JHCC said:

I second the track plate suggestion, with a few additional considerations.

First off, Thank you JHCC for you input and I will incorporate all three for sure as all are valued in my opinion. 

As for the glue joint, I didn't intend on it holding for very long. What I've done so far this morning is cut the block down to the sizes I need. I then fastened them using four 1" hardwood dowels 6" long and beveled the ends slightly. This along with keeping the receiver holes about an 1/4" shorter. Glued them up along with the faces to be jointed with heavy duty wood bonding agent. Once I had them hammered into place I used 4 pinch dogs to pull the two blocks together extremel tight and left to set up. I will also add steel plates lagged in on either side further binding the two blocks together.

The plates will be here tonight so in the morning I will notch out the tall block to accept the base plate as you suggested.

I agree that setting the holding plate higher above center will add to the stability and I like the sounds of the silicone between the plates and blocks. That may well absorb some vibration over ring.

Happy Heatin' & Beatin'

[JHCC]

1 hour ago, CTBlades said:

I like the sounds of the silicone between the plates and blocks.

No, you'll like the silence of the silicone between the plates and blocks.

[CTBlades]

6 hours ago, JHCC said:

No, you'll like the silence of the silicone between the plates and blocks.

Touche'.....! lol

[Frosty]

If you use a track plate to hold the bottom of the rail it will make a fair upsetting block. Not as good as heavier plate mind you but easily replaced as it warps in use.

I'm not fond of silicone adhesives in situation where they have to take shear forces, it tends to turn to eraser shavings after a while. Liquid nails construction adhesive is not only strong enough to tear lumber to pieces separating it once set it's flexible as all joints in lumber framing flexes.

I'd say I like sketch 2 better but that'd sound sort of self serving wouldn't it? I really enjoyed talking, good brainstorming. Something I really like about brainstorming on Iforge is seeing where all the different takes on ideas take things. I was thinking something different for the vertical rail stand and keep seeing more thoughts coming up.

It's like walking down an isle shopping in the things that might work supermarket.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Charles R. Stevens]

I don't think any one was expecting any mechanical strength from the silicon, just the fact that when placed under anvils and other steel chunks it dampens ring. One would be using mechanical fasteners. 

[Frosty]

I read something else into the silicone, that it be used to help stick the lumber under the rail together in addition to screws. Wrong track again and darned if I'm not surprised.

Frosty The Lucky.

[CTBlades]

10 hours ago, Frosty said:

I'd say I like sketch 2 better but that'd sound sort of self serving wouldn't it? I really enjoyed talking, good brainstorming. 

Self serving? Nah!!! You not that kind of guy. Yes I too really enjoyed talking and brainstorming.  Truly a pleasure! It's so difficult doing it via typing....

6 hours ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

I don't think any one was expecting any mechanical strength from the silicon, just the fact that when placed under anvils and other steel chunks it dampens ring. One would be using mechanical fasteners. 

Yes sir you are correct in saying it would be used only as a dampening agent.