mcb Posted August 3, 2016 Share Posted August 3, 2016 So the old plaster and sand lined bucket-forge (far right in the picture below) I made is lasting longer than I ever thought it would but it is still getting pretty sad inside and will need replaced or at least relined soon. As I do more projects I am also realizing its a bit too small and since the metal goes in the top it gets the whole piece too hot to hold and is really hard to get the heat where I want/need it. I started a pair of V-bit tongs to hold the box of railroad spikes I bought (no I am not going to make knifes out of them ) and after drawing out the jaws I am have trouble getting the heat where I need it at the base of the reins. So I am thinking of buying a forge rather than making another one. Mostly because I don't have a welder to make the body of the forge right and I would rather be forging than building a forge. Although I could use the same money to buy an arc welder and make a forge... I am I moderately experience welder just don't presently own one. Anyway what do you guys think of Majestic Forges. The 2 Burner Farrier Economy Forge seems like it would fit my budget and anticipated project sizes very nicely. (I am working my way up to making a felling ax head but I have a lot of learning before I am ready for that.) Have any of you use that particular Majestic forge or Majestic forges in general? Would you recommend a different brand of forges? Should I just man-up and buy the welder and make my own forge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punkinracer Posted August 3, 2016 Share Posted August 3, 2016 I screwed around and built a few forges and ended up playing around with them more than actually smithing. Recently bit the bullet and bought a dual burner forge from Mighty Forge, and I absolutely love it! Looking back I probably spent more building stuff that didn't work than it would have been to buy a proper forge in the first place and the new one works ten times better!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 3, 2016 Share Posted August 3, 2016 The plaster and sand in a bucket myth is another example of why a person shouldn't believe more than 10% of what they see on the internet without vetting. Plaster and sand isn't a refractory, is barely capable of withstanding BBQing a steak without crumbling. In some cases it's actually dangerous. You don't need a welder to make a propane forge you can use nuts and bolts, sheet metal screws, pop rivets or olde time joinery, say mortise and tenon or forge welding. The joinery isn't very important unless you're making a forge to support more than say 100lbs. at an unbalanced angle. For a fast easy first forge build I like either black iron or better still stainless steel SINGLE WALL stove pipe between 10"-12" diameter x 24" long. You won't need 24" but it's a common and less expensive size. All you need for tools are, tin snips, aircraft are preferrable,yellow handle, straight cuts. hand drill and bits, pop rivets and puller. tape measure, etc. of course. Two stove pipe hanging brackets (hangers?) make perfect legs/feet, a little trimming and careful attachment and they will mount your burners. Everything necessary is off the shelf and workable with hand tools. Okay, buying a forge cuts a LOT of headaches even though there are plenty of guys here who are more than happy to help someone with a little shop skills and willing to do some of their own research. What you really have to watch out for is Youtube how to videos. The ONLY qualification a person needs to be a Youtube "expert" is a camera and internet connection, you aren't making a mistake ignoring Youtube help. Majestic are good forges and well worth the money. If it's within your budget it'll get you up and working a couple hours after it's delivered and after a little while you can be selling trinkets that make excellent beginner projects and pay for the forge ad fuel. Oh yeah, and the stock, buy new stock it's NOT that expensive and having a uniform predictable standardized size flattens the learning curve a LOT. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted August 3, 2016 Author Share Posted August 3, 2016 I agree Frosty there is a lot of crap out there on the internet. But I knew the bucket forge was not going to last when I built it. It was really cheap to make, the materials where locally available and I knew when I made it, it was a short term forge. It let me try forging some small stuff to see if I liked it without a large outlay of cash. And I have been surprised it has lasted as long as it has. But with all the issues I have worked through, to get it working as well as I have been able to, is part of the reason I want to buy a forge rather than build one. I have modified my burner twice two get a hotter more consistent flame, the lid cracked and needed fixed, etc. I have no doubt I have learned a lot from it and my next forge would be better (even if built without welding) but I would expect a forge purchased from a reputable fabricator would work well right out of the box. I am torn on this. My current burner is pretty good now. Might even get to welding temps if it was in a better insulated forge. What are some good reliable sources of refractory materials, kaowool, ridgidizer and firebricks? I can't fine anything locally so I would have to order much of it online. I also worry just a little bit about safely working with the kaowool. I also agree on buying good material. The RR spikes where cheap and are for screwing around and learning how to move metal. When I get serious about a project I will order better know materials so I can heat treat them properly. I still have a lot to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 3, 2016 Share Posted August 3, 2016 And you've realized another MAJOR reason not to use plaster and sand instead of a proper refractory it's a HUGE heat sink the forge is unlikely to reach a good temperature unless you put maybe 2x as much burner as a proper forge would need. Then IF you got enough burner in it the temperatures would degrade the crud quickly. Your forge lasted a long(ish) time because it wasn't getting to a good working temperature let alone welding heat. Forget the internet searches for this and open the (PAPER <GASP!>) Yellow Pages and look up HVAC suppliers and service companies. They use ceramic blanket all the time as well as hard refractories and fire brick, hard and soft. Service companies may not sell materials but often have rems. Rem is short for remains left over from a roll or say stick of steel, after what they need is used. A HVAC service company can't use left overs and be in code so they just chuck them hen the pile gets annoyingly big. I haven't bought a piece of Kaowool in probably 7 years and that time I needed a clean cut piece of specific size they could take off a roll without making the roll a rem. Of course you could PM Wayne Coe, he ships small quantities of forge building materials for darned reasonable prices AND he knows his stuff building the things. There is an issue with ceramic blanket refractories, they are silicate based ceramics and pose a breathing hazard if heavily exposed for prolonged periods. The health risk increases once they're heated to high temperatures say in a forge. The vitrified fibers are much more brittle and the broken ends are sharp and jagged. A dust mask takes care of that problem unless you have a beard in which case only a full face or even helmet are necessary to eliminate the hazard. To make it safe ceramic blanket needs to be enclosed, either in a closed container say the boiler in our basement or by encapsulation, plastic and tape or a rigidizer. Using it in a forge calls for a rigidizer, this makes it more solid so it will withstand mechanical damage better then a good kiln wash or alumina refractory plaster coat and there is no breathing hazard. There are high temperature water soluble ceramic blankets that are not a breathing hazard as any particles that end up in your lungs dissolves in a short time. Fire bricks aren't as good for lining a forge. Hard fire bricks are a really poor insulator, less than R1 in fact on top of that they're a serious heat sink, it takes a lot of fuel and time to get the bricks hot before the forge can get hot. Soft fire brick is better insulation, pretty decent actually but it's fragile and susceptible to welding fluxes so it needs a kiln wash to protect it. I do a basic brick pile forge at demos so spectators can see yo don't need specialized equipment to give it a try. Who wants to spend a few hundred bucks just to see if they might like learning a craft? In a case like that a dozen to 15 soft brick will make a perfectly workable propane forge though it'll wear out kind of fast. Another route is to line a handy steel box with Kaowool or the equivalent then make the flame face with high alumina kiln shelf. Easy peasy build and you only need ONE special tool, a ceramic or masonry hole saw for your hand drill to make burner port(s). I say Kaowool when I write because it's what I have and I don't have to think about it, not because it's better than any other high quality ceramic blanket. just FYI Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankySmith Posted August 3, 2016 Share Posted August 3, 2016 Wait....if only 10% of what is on the interwebs is true....how do I know which 10% on IFI to believe?! Or which one in ten of you is believable?! Or maybe just 10% of what Frosty says is right?! OH no, my reality is shifting! Help! just yankin your chain, Frosty. Actually I think 10% true is an awfully generous assessment. I would have put it closer to 1% myself. Which would make Frosty the ONLY right one here?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 3, 2016 Share Posted August 3, 2016 May I commend to your attention: 'Sturgeon's Revelation' How you would judge IFI would be to: look for consensus, avoid simplistic answers, look for specificity, and gain an appreciation for who has experience in the specific area(s) being addressed and who is a 'one book wonder' or just repeating hogwash they have heard but not tried. Anybody mentioning that they saw something in a movie can probably be ignored... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 3, 2016 Share Posted August 3, 2016 So, repeating what someone saw in a movie is in the same range of credibility as a second lieutenant saying, "in my experience. . ." That feeling making your head ache and your vision a little wobbly is "Cognizant dissonance" Spanky. It's perfectly normal when you discover something you KNOW to be true turns out to be false. That's why I don't make a secret of being a likable Bull . . . Shooter, it saves folk a lot of mental anguish when they find out I'm just making stuff up. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 3, 2016 Share Posted August 3, 2016 I was just reading an excerpt by one of the Generals at Appomattox this morning and He was double checking on his orders with another General... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 He the one who spent all his time confirming and double checking and didn't get around to fighting? Or was he Mr. Counter march. I'm thinking of the same General maybe? Lincoln relieved one of both IIRC. Think he talked about his experience as a 2nd Lieutenant? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted August 4, 2016 Author Share Posted August 4, 2016 This thread has come completely off the tracks. I believe you might be referring to General George B McClellan. He was way too cautious and ultimately relieved by President Lincoln. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 Although Longstreet's countermarch at the Gettysburg did cause all sorts of problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 McB Contact Lorne at Mighty Forge. I have two of them and they take a Lickin'. It's worth the Investment. Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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