treadle hammers

[keithh999]

I have seen several types of treadle hammers pictured in the gallery and was wondering if there is any difference in applied force if the lever action is applied internal of the main support and the anvil or external of the main support??

[keithh999]

im guessing noone has an answer or input???

[larrynjr]

I'm no kind of mechanical engineer to have an answer but I know others here are.
Possibly a similar question has already made it the rounds and they are waiting for you to find it in the archives or they haven't had time to fomulate an answer.

[John B]

I would think a lot would depend on pivot points and leverage ratios, and how efficient it is. I personally prefer one with internal connections as it takes up less space in the workshop

[Mills]

I'm unsure of what you are asking. To keep things in perspective there is not a correct answer to how to build a treadle. Consider ApprenticeMan's treadle and the Clay Spencer version then look at the Grasshopper. I have used both a swing arm and a grasshopper and while the GH is really neat, it is not worth the trouble. No real gains over the simplest of hammers. Friction is the real issue. However your mechanism operates, it needs to have the least friction in the system.

For example, I considered using a counterweight on an eccentric to reduce or eliminate springs. An engineer helped me with the design considerations and pointed out that unless I came up with a monomer strand (honking big fish line) there would be too much friction in the rope itself, aside from the numerous pulleys. Neat idea that did not work with real materials.

Thus if your design has bends and elbow then these will flex reducing the applied force. Not a good choice. if you are mounting your mechanism inside a tube but other than that it is straight lines and springs, you should be alright.

KISS

[keithh999]

i guess what i was asking/ inferring was would the hammer have more applied force if the main arm was pushed down with the external arms or pulled down via the internal arms??
thats pretty much the only way i can describe it as i dont have a treadle hammer but am considering building one with all the free stock i have available....just want more bang for my buck so to speak..LOL

[HWooldridge]

I built mine to the original ABANA plans that were put out 20 years ago or thereabouts. Not much adjustment, swing type 60lb head and about 24 inches clearance at rest. It hits very hard and I never make adjustments to it but instead, try to tailor the work and the tools to fit inside the sweet spot of contact. This area starts about 8 or 9 inches above its anvil. Higher than that and I have to assist with one hand to get a really hard hit but I don't have many combinations of tooling that are that tall. I'm not knocking any of the newer designs but the old ABANA plans will make a good hammer.

To answer your question, steel works best in tension - not compression, so in most applications, it's always better to pull than push.

[ThomasPowers]

Also as was mentioned above lever arm and piviot ratios control how the energy you put into the system gets used.

[Ken Kelley]

So with every added complication, i.e., straight line hammer as opposed to the swing type you are introducing mechanical "disadvantage" to the system and reducing efficiency. I would like to build a treadle hammer for the primary purpose of drawing out pattern welded billets. It sounds to me as if the swing type hammer would be admirably suited for this task? And simpler to build in the bargain.

[Marc]

Yup, basically I would think that you do the simple physics lever calculations between the treadle and arm, and then maybe subtract for friction. So a basic swing arm, Oliver-type, would probably be the most efficient, as there would be fewer friction points.

Personally, I like the inline, mostly because I've gotten accustomed to top tools and a swing-arm could need adjustment for different heights.

[keithh999]

OK guys...too much math for me..LOL i would like to build a treadle hammer with a pretty significant smack for those times when i need a heavier hit than my regular hand hammer..i have just about anything in the way of steel stock available in which to make it so if swing arm hits harder then thats what ill build.

[ThomasPowers]

Ken; spend the effort building a tire power hammer. You be much happier drawing out billets anhd it's not that much more work/money than a well designed built treadle.

[Shane Stegmeier]

Ditto on what Thomas said... A treadle can draw material with the right tooling, and an overdeveloped right leg, but if you want to draw material out a fast mechanical hammer is the way to go. Treadle hammers are great for using tooling under, punches, chisels, and stamps. An air hammer is more expensive to build normally and is good for most of the stuff that a treadle hammer is good at, and can draw pretty well too. But for drawing out billets a mechanical hammer is the berries. Billy Merritt is a knifemaker / patternwelded steel maker, and he has a super tuned 25# LG that he has running FAST I would guess it is running atleast 400 Bpm and maybe faster?

[stretch]

A air hammer such as a Heboe or Sahinler or Nazel is far better than a mechanical hammer. I used to have a 25 lb mechanical and there is no comparison. By air hammer here you must mean one that needs a compressor. The self contained air hammers are the best out there. I use mine for stamping, cutting and whatever else I need it for. The more I use it for the more I learn how versatile it is.

[metalmangeler]

Hey Stretch are you comparing a 25# to a 100# or are you saying both at the same rating? I am not argueing just clarifing.

[stretch]

I had a 25 lb and now I use a 60 kg Heboe. Of course it will do more work than a 25lb mechanical, another big difference I noticed right away was the accuracy of the Heboes. Not all loosey goosey like a mechanical.
I was only commenting on finn saying that the 25 lb mechanical was the best at drawing out and an air hammer was kind of so-so. I was clarifying the difference in air hammers.

[Frostfly]

Seems kinda a false comparison to compare a 25# to a 100#(or bigger in the case of 60kg) hammer. Also wouldn't the quality/repair/age of each machine matter. I think declaring something best requires answers to a lot more varibles.

[Hunterbow Smithy]

As far as the mechanical advantage of the treadle hammer is concerned, like most things, there is no free lunch. I have the plans for the Clay Spencer Treadle Hammer and myself & my colleague (a mechanical engineer) examined the linkage system and came to the conclusion that they do not multiply the input force since the pivot is practically in the center of each link. That being said they still hit a xxxx of a lot harder than the armstrong hammer, so I guess it comes down to what you want to use the hammer for. If you want to do precise work, then the treadle hammer is probably your best bet, however if you are making billets & drawing out stock all of the time, then a mechanical power hammer is a good option. Or if you have a lot of money to spend ( or a very understanding wife) then get an air hammer and you can do it all.

Cheers,

Chad

[Shane Stegmeier]

There are LOTs of variables to consider in determining "Best" not the least is taste and personal preferance. For a given weight of power hammer: A steam hammer running on steam hits hardest, then a mechanical hammer, then an air hammer. As far as speed goes: a mechanical hammer will generally run faster, then a self contained air hammer, then a utility hammer, then a steam hammer... When you are drawing material out you want harder/faster/more;-) Within reason and the starting thickness of your stock;-) There is a HUGE variety of mechanical hammers, some work very well indeed and have very nice control, others a rude and crude and make more mashed potatoes than useful work... Sadly LGs are on both ends of that spectrum, I have seen well mannered LGs and rude dogs, other less common mechanicals were actualy beter designed and were easier to control. With a LG if you are a good mechanic and know how to keep it adjusted to the work you are doing and it has a brake, you can get some excellent work out of it, but it won't have the control of a selfcontained air hammer, ever...

It takes a lot of skill to make a mechanical hammer a versitile as an air or a steam hammer, but if we are comparing hammers all in the same weight class the mechinical will likely out draw the air or steam hammers, and do it CHEAPER!!! Compare the size of motor on a mechinical hammer, verses the selfcontained air hammer, or the compressor to run a utility style air hammer or a converted Steam hammer, and don't even think about running a steam boiler;-)

Personally I prefer air hammers and steam hammers, I really like the control you get (I love the raw power of a Steam hammer, but in the right hands you have wonderful control as well;-) but don't knock the mechanicals they have their place. They were always cheaper, and more plentiful, and still are. Look at what you pay for a used LG, compared to a new air hammer (unless you build your own...)

The trick is to know what each tool is good at, and to use it to it's full potential.