Why would you deliberately damage an anvil

[stan]

This subject may have already been discuss at some point but I could not find it. The practice of testing chisels and punches on the lower section of an anvil seems so wrong at any level. And the craftsmen ( so Called) who partake in this practice of slowly ruining the most important tool of their trade surely could not think its a good idea .I have heard others discussing TP for instance but I still can not under stand why. My large PW anvil, which I am very fond of has not only had all its markings removed but significant damage to the lower wrought iron section and feet.I have worked in machine shops and if anyone was doing something that would damage one of the machines there would be xxxx to pay.

[7A749]

It sort of reminds me of all the wire feeders on welding machines I've repaired where guys used the tip of the hot MIG gun to adjust the feed rate. Knobs all burned up and the face all smashed in and gouged all over.

Its likely not theirs, so it's not their problem. In this case, at least they didn't treat the face like they treated the rest of it. It's still serviceable. I couldn't see myself doing that, but I take relatively good care of my tools.

 

IMHO of course

[stan]

Yeah ,I believe the practice was more common in big industrial blacksmith shops where as you say if its not theirs its not their problem.

[7A749]

I bet you're entirely right about that too. I've been repairing welding machines for about ten years, and I've seen some really rough machinery come out of big shops where low paid operators just beat the living daylights out of it. That's a big reason I usually advise ppl looking for gear to stay away from retired rental machinery. It gets beat like a rented mule, and the rental outfits know this, so they're usually looking to move it about as soon as the factory warranty runs out. They generally have their own certified Inhouse technicians working on the stuff, so it's in their best interests to liquidate it as soon as it becomes a liability. As long as the manufacturer is footing the bill for the parts and labor, all is good. Once it's on them, not so much.

I know that isn't necessarily about blacksmithing and anvils, but the principle applies that if something doesn't belong to someone using it, they often will treat it with disrespect. Unfortunate but true in many cases. At least in commercial applications from my experience and I've seen my fair share of beat up gear. I'm glad the top of it looks good tho. Just a darn shame somebody had to gouge it all up like that because they were too lazy to use a piece of scrap for the task.

IMHO of course

[SLAG]

This practice is yet one more examine that mankind has been spawning idiots since before we left the trees for the savanna. It is said that God loves fools because He made so many of them.

Just sayin.   SLAG.

Edited May 19, 2016 by SLAG
Necessary translation into English.

[turbo7]

They're too lazy to grab a bit scrap mate.

[stan]

33 minutes ago, turbo7 said:

They're too lazy to grab a bit scrap mate.

That it, they probably use a shifter as a hammer

[turbo7]

For sure mate

[ThomasPowers]

When you are showing off to a "customer" it's more impressive to use an anvil as they probably don't understand that the body is dead soft.  Remember too that back in the day the anvil was a tool and you could go out and buy another. It wasn't some sort of sacred totem. and I believe that that quote is better as " It is said that God must love fools because He made so many of them."

[stan]

6 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

When you are showing off to a "customer" it's more impressive to use an anvil as they probably don't understand that the body is dead soft.  Remember too that back in the day the anvil was a tool and you could go out and buy another. It wasn't some sort of sacred totem. and I believe that that quote is better as " It is said that God must love fools because He made so many of them."

That's an apt quote, and other fools follow the practice of theses fools and think that's what everyone does. Recently you talked about re stamping the weight numbers on an anvil after the true weight has been established, I guess stamping markers information would be out of the question, I'll just have to except it as part of its history. 

 

[arftist]

17 hours ago, stan said:

That's an apt quote, and other fools follow the practice of theses fools and think that's what everyone does. Recently you talked about re stamping the weight numbers on an anvil after the true weight has been established, I guess stamping markers information would be out of the question, I'll just have to except it as part of its history. 

 

The "Fool" who made all those chisels made a good living selling all those chisels and if he had to "prove" ti each customer that he could actually make a tool that could cut iron it is a cost of doing business similar to advertising or an elecric bill is today. 

in what way is your anvil almost ruined by marks in it's soft sides? 

[JNewman]

While i would not test chisels that way myself these days,  when much of this was done the shop probably did not have testing equipment or temperature controlled furnaces for heat treat.  Better to find in your shop that you had not hardened the chisel hard enough or conversely too hard, than having a customer return the chisel later on upset because the tool was too soft or too hard.

[Mark Ling]

34 minutes ago, JNewman said:

upset because the tool was too soft.

ha, a play on words.

                                                                           Littleblacksmith

[stan]

6 hours ago, arftist said:

The "Fool" who made all those chisels made a good living selling all those chisels and if he had to "prove" ti each customer that he could actually make a tool that could cut iron it is a cost of doing business similar to advertising or an elecric bill is today. 

in what way is your anvil almost ruined by marks in it's soft sides? 

I think that if this practice off `testing chisels ` had continued on this anvil it may have resulted in the feet being removed. Not to mention the senseless removal of the makings of ,even when purchased, a famous brand anvil. I can understand to a point why it was done but really who buys a chisel to use on an anvil feet, no one, so why not demonstrate on a block of steel or similar. Anyway lucky this anvil is certainly not ruined.

[arftist]

1 hour ago, stan said:

I think that if this practice off `testing chisels ` had continued on this anvil it may have resulted in the feet being removed. Not to mention the senseless removal of the makings of ,even when purchased, a famous brand anvil. I can understand to a point why it was done but really who buys a chisel to use on an anvil feet, no one, so why not demonstrate on a block of steel or similar. Anyway lucky this anvil is certainly not ruined.

The general public's understanding of alloys of iron versus pure wrought iron, at the time the marks were made was 

virtually nil.  Most thought anvils were the hardest thing around and had no idea only that only the top plate was hard. 

In other words cutting the anvil with a chisel just made on that anvil was a sales trick. The customer walked away convinced he had purchased a very well made high quality chisel. 

[stan]

Yes arftst, put like that I can see your side more now, and your right in that it could have happened 100 years ago.

Cheers stan.

[WL smith]

Let me brag a little here about chisel marks on anvil legs! The marks on mine are deeper than yours!! However they are not on the important top plate. use it in good health for years. Like a skin doctor told me years ago "in your case it is not a beauty mark, but a scar and a badge.

[stan]

2 hours ago, WL smith said:

Let me brag a little here about chisel marks on anvil legs! The marks on mine are deeper than yours!! However they are not on the important top plate. use it in good health for years. Like a skin doctor told me years ago "in your case it is not a beauty mark, but a scar and a badge.

Hey mate if you are going to brag show pictures

[WL smith]

No camera at the moment hope to fix that problem soon

[Dan P.]

I've tested the hardness of cold chisels and centre punches many a time. It's not going to hurt the anvil, and let's not forget that an anvil is a tool, not an artefact, to be left to rust (ahem-hem, Stan!).

What gets my goat is what appears to be a whole generation of idiots who permanently damaged the working faces of their anvils by using them as welding or cutting tables.

[Frank Turley]

Grant Sarver (RIP) of Off-Center Tool Company said that he served an old fashioned apprenticeship where he was taught to test cold work tools on the anvil sides and base and he had better do it that way, or else! His boss insisted.

[Foundryman]

People these days seem regard anvils as precious relics, when this "damage" was done to these anvils there were literally hundreds of companies mass producing anvils. They were, and are, just a tool to do the job, yes its a shame that you cant see the makers mark any more but if you want a pristine anvil, then buy a pristine anvil.

I agree with Dan P, what's much more upsetting is the way people have used anvils as cutting tables and welding benches or worse still, the way they were scrapped wholesale in the years between the downturn of commercial blacksmithing and the start of the hobbiest blacksmith movement.

 

[stan]

12 hours ago, Dan P. said:

I've tested the hardness of cold chisels and centre punches many a time. It's not going to hurt the anvil, and let's not forget that an anvil is a tool, not an artefact, to be left to rust (ahem-hem, Stan!).

What gets my goat is what appears to be a whole generation of idiots who permanently damaged the working faces of their anvils by using them as welding or cutting tables.

Hi Dan I agree any damage to the work surface is much worse. That photo of my anvil in a rusty state I took just before I bought it, it looks like this now .I know I seem to be carrying on like a two bob watch about this but any damage to an anvil through misuse is regrettable and I do class testing chisels on anvil feet as misuse, you say its not going to hurt the anvil see picture of right front foot.

[stan]

11 hours ago, Frank Turley said:

Grant Sarver (RIP) of Off-Center Tool Company said that he served an old fashioned apprenticeship where he was taught to test cold work tools on the anvil sides and base and he had better do it that way, or else! His boss insisted.

 Hi Frank ,its funny how these practices were in a lot of trades,  but you wouldn`t do it now ay.It reminds me of when I first started working on cars .If you need to replace a welch plug( think you guys call them freeze plugs)you were told to punch the old into the water jacket an let it rust away. 

[stan]

3 hours ago, Foundryman said:

People these days seem regard anvils as precious relics, when this "damage" was done to these anvils there were literally hundreds of companies mass producing anvils. They were, and are, just a tool to do the job, yes its a shame that you cant see the makers mark any more but if you want a pristine anvil, then buy a pristine anvil.

I agree with Dan P, what's much more upsetting is the way people have used anvils as cutting tables and welding benches or worse still, the way they were scrapped wholesale in the years between the downturn of commercial blacksmithing and the start of the hobbiest blacksmith movement.

 

I agree you can`t change its history and I accept it, and as it was at the time I bought the anvil there was an similar size PW with  all the markings intact and very little damage and was just about to clinch the deal when I notice a hair line crack at the waste , so lucky because then I would have something to winge about