Mikey98118 Posted February 14, 2017 Author Share Posted February 14, 2017 I deal with Zoro; they are pretty good. But Supplyhouse.com is a pleasant surprise; thanks for that. If you read closely on his site, Larry said that his "Z" burner was hotter burning then his modified side-arm burner. It only takes changing out one fitting for another. Most burners nowadays employ MIG contact tips as gas jets; they are cheap, powerful and easily found; but, as with most things, they have irritating practical limits, which will sometimes force anyone who pursues maximum performance to go through some extra effort. The smallest contact tips are made for 023" welding wire; they have .031" orifice diameters, and are the best available tips for 1/2" burners. But .028" or .029" orifices would be better; you can only achieve that small an orifice by inserting a one inch long piece of capillary tube in the tip. For 3/4" burners, you have to choose between .023" and .030" MIG tips; one a little too small, and the other a little too large. I normally suggest purchasing the smaller tip, and enlarging it three or four thousandths of an inch with a set of torch tip cleaners. However, when used in a listless burner, the undersized tip can be just what the doctor ordered. Learning how to "tweak" burner performance is just as valuable as building the right burner design exactly according to the inventor's instructions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mberghorn Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Glad I could contribute! I currently have the .030 mig tip in my 3/4" burners and I based my build almost entirely from Ron Reil's pages and pictures of similar burners I could find from the Internet. I'll definitely be checking out Larry's "Z" burner as this is the first I've heard of a build of one. I've seen them for sale on his site (I also bought the flares for my burners from him) but I missed the plans for it. On a side note I bought your book from Centaur Forge (it was over $100 on Amazon) but I got an email saying that the publisher was waiting on final edits from the author before it went back into print. Any idea on when it'll be available? I'm trying to soak up as much knowledge as I can find! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 15, 2017 Author Share Posted February 15, 2017 Well; I guess I'll have to get back with the publisher! In the meantime, anyone can download a pirated PDF of the book for zero dollars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mberghorn Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Mikey98118 said: In the meantime, anyone can download a pirated PDF of the book for zero dollars. I have enough information on these pages to keep me occupied until it gets here, lol. Plus, I do better with hard copies of books than digital versions. I misspoke yesterday, by the way. The jet tip I have in my burners now is a .035 Tweco tip. I'm not sure where I saw that size recommended but I'm sure it was from an out-of-date page. I ordered the .023 tips this morning and I'll be swapping them out whenever they get here. In the mean time, I'm off to research the "Z" burner and the "Mikey" burner!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mberghorn Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 So after looking at the "Z" burner on Larry's website it looks like the only thing that he changed in the design is that instead of using a reducing tee fitting he uses a sort of Y fitting instead. After reading all the info in here about the swirl of air and gas in the mixing tube I would assume that this gives as much of the attributes of a linear burner that you can get with a side-arm set up. Brilliant! I might have to see if I can find some of those fittings and do some "tinkering" as Frosty would say. I also found where I got the .035 orifice suggestion from. It's on Larry's page in the side-arm section; he recommends a .035 or a .045 mig tip for the 3/4" burner and a .023 for the 1/2" burner. I'll try and post some pictures of my progress for other FNGs like myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 16, 2017 Author Share Posted February 16, 2017 I have preferred orifice sizes for my burner designs, and others have different preferences for theirs; its all good. Making gas jets from capillary tube & MIG contact tips Employing reusable dispensers needles in Luer lock adapters as gas jets on small burner are pretty straight forward, and the small amount of care needed to cut them to length and clean out internal burrs afterward are the same as are needed for heavy wall capillary tube. I recommend using a Tweco plain series 14 MIG contact tip, for .052” welding wire (which actually has a .064” orifice), to closely match with the outside diameter of heavy wall stainless steel capillary tube, which mostly comes in 1/16”, .0625”, or .064” outside diameters. You can choose to swage the capillary tube in place within a MIG tip; or you can employ a series 14T (tapered) MIG tip, if you are going to silver braze the capillary tube in place. These tips are 1/4” diameter and 1-1/2” long (excluding their threaded portion); their thread is 1/4-28. Miller also makes a series of contact tips that are 1/4” diameter by 1-1/2” long (excluding their threaded portion, which is also is 1/4-28), but they are not tapered. Because stainless steel capillary tube comes in vary limited diameters, other heavy wall brass or even copper tubing, normally employed as electronic discharge machining (EDM) tubes, are also used as gas jets. Even thin wall hypodermic can be used, so long as both its inside and outside diameters are listed; it is available as dispenser needles, and as 3’ to 5’ lengths. MIG contact tips come in limited diameters, as do capillary and hypodemic tubing. You must begin your search with a tube with the desired orifice size (inside diameter). Next, you try to find a MIG tip with as close a match to its outside diameter as possible. If the tip’s diameter is within .0005” oversize to the tip, it is easily swaged down to trap the tube in it. You merely have to drill a 1/4” diameter hole in a short piece of 1/2” x 1” bar. Begin by scribing a line on the 1” face of the bar, somewhere near its center, using a combination square. Then scribe a second line from it, over the a 1/2” face. Use the square to find the center of the line on the 1/2” face, scribe a cross mark, and center punch it; drill the 1/4” hole completely through the bar. Use a thin cutoff disc to cut completely through the bar at the first line, and clean off all burrs. Place the desired length of capillary tube into the MIG tip, and place them within your new swaging die; Hit its top sharply with a hammer. Cut off the excess tube within a 1/8” beyond the die, and hand sand it back even with the tip’s face. Then clean out any internal burrs, with torch tip cleaners. If the MIG tip’s orifice is too small for the capillary tube to fit in, Use torch tip cleaners to enlarge it a few thousandths of an inch. You will find one round file in the kit to be small enough to push back and forth within the MIG tip, while turning it slowly. Every few minutes, you need to check the hole against the capillary tube, as it gradually enlarges. The new orifice will not be parallel, but end up slightly tapered; probably by less than one thousandths of an inch all around the periphery of the capillary tube. If, you are committed to silver brazing you tube in place, continue filing until it will slide into the tip to its desired length; its end will stop against the wall of the tapered MIG tip’s orifice; helping to stop the filler alloy from plugging up the capillary tube. If you would rather avoid silver brazing, stop 3/16” short of the desired length, and cutoff the capillary tube 5/16” overlong. Place the tube in the MIG tip, and screw the tip into place in the burner, or within a part that will end up in the burner (or within a threaded hole in a block of steel; whatever). Tap the whole assembly against a metal surface, or tap a hammer against the excess tube, until it comes within 1/8” of the MIG tip’s front face. Use a circular motion on very fine sandpaper (at least #300 grit or finer) to reduce it down to even with the tip’s face; use the torch tip cleaners to remove the tube’s internal burr. Wire gauge drill bits can be hand spun in a pin vice to enlarge holes in MIG tips to within a couple of thousandths of an inch of your capillary tube, so that hand filing an available MIG tip orifice to the right inside diameter never needs to become tedious. It is important for the MIG contact tip in most burner sizes to be tapered for proper air flow from the air intakes as it passes by the gas jet on its way into the mixing tube, or the mixing area in tube burners. How important? How small is you burner? The smaller the burner the more important it becomes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 Silver brazing capillary tube While there are a variety of sources for capillary tube, the easiest way to find any particular orifice size you need, still remains blunt end dispenser needles; all of which are stainless steel. Most easily available capillary and hypodermic tubes, are stainless steel; Stainless steels require the use of brazing alloys that contain 50% or higher silver content (the higher the better), and flux that is rated for use with stainless steel; most of these are black flux. I recommend Harris white flux for use on thin wall stainless tubing, rather than black flux, which is likely to be too aggressive. Just before brazing, use fine grit sandpaper to break up surface oxide, and to scratch up the tube’s smooth surface, wherever you want the silver braze alloy to adhere. Equally as important is to keep the flux well away from areas you don’t want the filler alloy to overrun, like the end of the capillary tube. Harris white flux for stainless steel (#348-SSWF7POP): https://www.amazon.com/J-W-Harris-348-SSWF7POP-Brazing-Paste%252c/dp/B00PB9WJZ4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1467760440&sr=8-2&keywords=harris+stainless+steel+flux Rio Grande 65% silver content brazing alloy #3101100, which is excellent and inexpensive; it is especially recommended for small pieces, such as stainless needles and capillary tube: https://www.riogrande.com/Product/silver-wire-solder-20-ga/101100 It is best to push an oversize length of tube into the tip, add flux to the tube, and draw it back into the hole, leaving excess tubing protruding from the end of the gas jet; and then cut, sand, and deburr the tube to fit, after brazing. Brass or copper EDM tubing can also be used to provide the right size gas orifices, by combining them with MIG contact tip holders of other sizes. Heavy wall nickel and stainless steel capillary tubing can be hard to find in desired orifice sizes, but are still available from Small Parts, which is now owned by Amazon.com: https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=srs%3D3041233011%26search-alias%3Dspecialty-aps&field-keywords=capillary+tube If you have the choice, I recommend heavy wall capillary tube (AKA gauge tubes) over thin wall hypodermic tube, if you can find them in the orifice diameters desired (as they are far less inclined to be partially dissolved by the flux, should you be a little too slow with your braze work): http://ziggystubesandwires.com/Capillary-Tubing Various heavy wall stainless steel capillary tubes are also available from: https://microgroup.com/store/fractional-stainless-tubing.html 1/16” (.0625”) O.D. in various inside diameters are available from Lab Express: https://www.labemco.com/capillary-tubing.html Stainless heavy all capillary tube is available from Rapid Tube: http://cadenceinc.com/catalog/product-group/type-316-ss-capillary-tubing-cut-to-length/ Stainless thin wall hypodermic capillary tubing are available in various orifice sizes from Rapid Tube & Wire: http://cadenceinc.com/catalog/product-group/type-316-stainless-steel-tubing/ Various diameters of stainless steel cleaning wire are also available from Rapid Tube & Wire: http://cadenceinc.com/catalog/product-group/304-stainless-steel-wire/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 Mberghorn said, "I misspoke yesterday, by the way. The jet tip I have in my burners now is a .035 Tweco tip. I'm not sure where I saw that size recommended but I'm sure it was from an out-of-date page. I ordered the .023 tips this morning and I'll be swapping them out whenever they get here. In the mean time, I'm off to research the "Z" burner and the "Mikey" burner!!" In that case, dropping down to the .030" tip might help you burner's performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 21, 2017 Author Share Posted February 21, 2017 Just because there is a welding supply store in your town doesn’t mean that they will have the MIG tips you need in stock, or that they will bother to sell you one or two of them, even if they do. Your sale is hardly worth their paperwork. You can buy MIG tips as few as five or ten at a time online for less money than they will cost at your local welding supply store, and chances are that the shipping charge won’t amount to more than the gas and time you may waste receiving a rotten experience, while trying to buy them locally: Radnor and Tweco Model 14T (tapered) MIG contact tips are available through eBay and Amazon.com, often with free shipping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mberghorn Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 On 2/17/2017 at 2:27 PM, Mikey98118 said: Mberghorn said, "I misspoke yesterday, by the way. The jet tip I have in my burners now is a .035 Tweco tip. I'm not sure where I saw that size recommended but I'm sure it was from an out-of-date page. I ordered the .023 tips this morning and I'll be swapping them out whenever they get here. In the mean time, I'm off to research the "Z" burner and the "Mikey" burner!!" In that case, dropping down to the .030" tip might help you burner's performance. I ordered some .023 and .030 from Welding Supply through ebay so once those get here I'll swap them out and see which works better for my needs. I can't thank you guys enough for all the info contained in these pages! Being so far from any other smiths that I know of this is as close to an apprenticeship as I can get, lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Ah have you checked out the ABANA affiliate map/list? As far as I can judge you have 7 times more blacksmithing *groups* near you than I do. We had one guy lately who finally looked into it and found the President of the local affiliate lived on the same road he did...You may be surprised... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeepinJoe Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Another place to buy Mig tips is Tractor Supply. They sell Hobart mig welding machines and the Hobart tips they sell in packs of 5 are SAE thread. I think they sell the packs for $10 or $11 bucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mberghorn Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 3 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: Ah have you checked out the ABANA affiliate map/list? As far as I can judge you have 7 times more blacksmithing *groups* near you than I do. We had one guy lately who finally looked into it and found the President of the local affiliate lived on the same road he did...You may be surprised... I didn't know they had a comprehensive map like that on the ABANA website. I'll definitely be looking into that, thanks!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 25, 2017 Author Share Posted February 25, 2017 Photo of a perfect flame from a "T" burner I was doing some research on the web and stumbled across an old thread (2009) from IFI; it is an excellent picture of a perfect flame coming out of a "T" burner, so that people who want to know how nice a flame this simple burner is capable of making can take a good long look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mberghorn Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 On 2/21/2017 at 1:25 PM, ThomasPowers said: Ah have you checked out the ABANA affiliate map/list? As far as I can judge you have 7 times more blacksmithing *groups* near you than I do. We had one guy lately who finally looked into it and found the President of the local affiliate lived on the same road he did...You may be surprised... I looked at the map and the closest Guild is about 2 hours away from me. Two hours isn't a deal breaker but doesn't really allow for weekly visits. I did find a...veteran....blacksmith about 45 minutes from me and he said he'd be more than happy to show me the ropes and maybe sell me some of his stuff!! He said he's getting too old for it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 Going to a meeting and asking "hey who's closer to me?" can sometimes pay off. We used to carpool to SOFA meetings, also a 2 hour drive. Lots of fun as we made a day of it and stopped by a fleamarket on the way. ($20 post vises and good Pie at the FFA booth). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 1, 2017 Author Share Posted March 1, 2017 Gas tubes About sixteen years back Larry Zoeller changed schedule About thirteen years ago Larry Zoeller changed out the 1/8" schedule #40 pipe for schedule #80 on the gas tubes in his burners; this allowed him to tap 1/4-28 thread for MIG contact tips directly into the gas tubes he offers for sale. We all shortly found out that their smaller inside diameters improved gas flow so much that 1" long MIG tips in 3" long gas tubes worked just as well as my 1-1/2" long tips in my 4" tubes did. After wiping the egg off my face, I forgave him (no; honestly I did). The lesson is that, as your burner design grows smaller, and takes a smaller jet orifice diameter, it won't hurt to let that gas tube it's threaded into to shrink down some, too. Although 1/4-28 thread has become very popular on MIG tips, there are a very few still around that have smaller thread, which will screw into much smaller (and shorter) gas tubes. Furthermore, nothing prevents you from sliding a smaller tube inside of the gas tube, ending just short of the inside thread for the MIG tip, to constrict the passage enough to improve gas flow into the MIG tip's opening, without the need to change out either tip type or gas tube size. If your gas jet orifice gets small enough, the MIG tips they are trapped in can replace the gas tube completely. 33MIG contact tips come in different designs, and with different orifices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mberghorn Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 19 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: Going to a meeting and asking "hey who's closer to me?" can sometimes pay off. We used to carpool to SOFA meetings, also a 2 hour drive. Lots of fun as we made a day of it and stopped by a fleamarket on the way. ($20 post vises and good Pie at the FFA booth). I think I'm going to do just that. The Group closest to me is meeting this Friday so I might just head up there and introduce myself and see if there's anyone that lives closer. Conveniently enough the discussion topic for this weekend is gas burners!! On a side note if you're ever on the eastern shore of MD and want to venture a little farther south closer to VA they have a TON of antique stores down there. One of them had a 600 lb anvil in pristine condition! 7 hours ago, Mikey98118 said: Gas tubes About sixteen years back Larry Zoeller changed schedule About thirteen years ago Larry Zoeller changed out the 1/8" schedule #40 pipe for schedule #80 on the gas tubes in his burners; this allowed him to tap 1/4-28 thread for MIG contact tips directly into the gas tubes he offers for sale. We all shortly found out that their smaller inside diameters improved gas flow so much that 1" long MIG tips in 3" long gas tubes worked just as well as my 1-1/2" long tips in my 4" tubes did. After wiping the egg off my face, I forgave him (no; honestly I did). The lesson is that, as your burner design grows smaller, and takes a smaller jet orifice diameter, it won't hurt to let that gas tube it's threaded into to shrink down some, too. Although 1/4-28 thread has become very popular on MIG tips, there are a very few still around that have smaller thread, which will screw into much smaller (and shorter) gas tubes. Furthermore, nothing prevents you from sliding a smaller tube inside of the gas tube, ending just short of the inside thread for the MIG tip, to constrict the passage enough to improve gas flow into the MIG tip's opening, without the need to change out either tip type or gas tube size. If your gas jet orifice gets small enough, the MIG tips they are trapped in can replace the gas tube completely. 33MIG contact tips come in different designs, and with different orifices. The first set of .035 mig tips that I bought were advertised as 1/4-28 thread but were actually 1/4-27 thread. Took me forever to find a tap for that and cost me too. Moral of the story is make sure the tips you buy have the thread you want before you buy a 25 pack.... Also, is there a particular type of tube you recommend to slide inside the larger #40 pipe to constrict the gas flow, such as titanium tubing vs copper vs brass? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jbradshaw Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 On 2/25/2017 at 3:15 PM, Mikey98118 said: Photo of a perfect flame from a "T" burner I was doing some research on the web and stumbled across an old thread (2009) from IFI; it is an excellent picture of a perfect flame coming out of a "T" burner, so that people who want to know how nice a flame this simple burner is capable of making can take a good long look. I have been thinking about adopting the 1/4x1/8" bushing to make a collet option to a T burner to make it easier to tune. This user did enhance the ease of tuning his burner by welding a collar on. I wonder if that has anything to do with getting a perfect flame? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodnMetalGuy Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 3 hours ago, Mberghorn said: The first set of .035 mig tips that I bought were advertised as 1/4-28 thread but were actually 1/4-27 thread. Took me forever to find a tap for that and cost me too. Moral of the story is make sure the tips you buy have the thread you want before you buy a 25 pack.... I also ran into that issue, but the threads on the first ones I got turned out to be metric. I have not heard of a 1/4-27 thread before. -- Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 1, 2017 Author Share Posted March 1, 2017 The MIG tips change due to the pressure of market forces; most of the changes come from a glut of imported welding machines; especially those popularized in England (Clarke brand); I can remember when they featured none-threaded MIG tips; now they favor millimeter thread. Tweco tips did use to have 1/4-27 thread; they also use to have much better quality control. Orifice size used to be +/- .001" and are now +/- .003". I spend more time researching parts than anything else I write about; it's the nature of re-purposed burner parts. The smallest tips used to be for .023" wire; now you will frequently find tips advertised for .025" wire, which should be very bad if used an a 1/2" sized burner, but should be perfect in a 3/4" burner. I don't know for sure, because I haven't purchased one yet, and so have no idea whether or not they really are a different size, or just an advertising glitch that has been endlessly repeated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 2, 2017 Author Share Posted March 2, 2017 All "T" burner questions should be addressed to Frosty. I don't feel qualified to answer them. Judging flame colors; or not Usually, I can decipher what a photo shows about a flame. But, something about some videos can totally skew flame colors; let the viewer beware. I recently viewed video of a 3/4" Mikey burner running in daylight; it looked to be running just fair, and possibly a little reducing; it was followed by a video of the burner running in full dark. The burner now shoved a bright red flame nozzle, with a blue flame with some white in it; there seemed to be a whole lot of secondary flame. I suggested the guy drop down to the next lower MIG tip size. The next video was also shot in full dark, of the burner with the smaller tip; it showed a straight blue flame coming out of a bright orange flame nozzle, with even more secondary flame. The primary flame color and shape was much improved, and the flame nozzle was obviously hotter, so what was the deal with this horribly large secondary flame?!? I have seen small secondary flames coming from burners with red hot flame nozzles; these were all on fan-blown burners. I have never seen an orange hot flame nozzle on a burner producing secondary flames. Finally, the shape and tint of the secondary flame was all wrong. I have concluded that the video had picked up super heated exhaust gasses, which are invisible to the human eye, and were showing some image into the near I.R. bands. Propane and propylene flames are invisible in bright sunlight; they are easily observed in dim sunlight (shadow), and equally well seemed in full dark. So, why have I never seen this problem from photos; look back, I never saw a photo of a running burner filmed in the dark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 About getting the right tap for the mig contact tips available. Buy the tap used to chase the mig gun at the welding supply. The guys at one of the local welding supplies had no idea what the thread size was but had the tap on the shelf. The tap came in a baggie marked Lincoln and a pt.# . Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mberghorn Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 20 hours ago, WoodnMetalGuy said: I also ran into that issue, but the threads on the first ones I got turned out to be metric. I have not heard of a 1/4-27 thread before. -- Dave I had never heard of something being threaded like that either but sure enough....I tried three different thread gauges and they all said 27. I was hoping that I could get away with a metric one because it was so close but no such luck. 4 hours ago, Frosty said: About getting the right tap for the mig contact tips available. Buy the tap used to chase the mig gun at the welding supply. The guys at one of the local welding supplies had no idea what the thread size was but had the tap on the shelf. The tap came in a baggie marked Lincoln and a pt.# . Frosty The Lucky. That's a great idea! I just bought some mig tips and then put a thread gauge on them to see what tap I needed. I can't believe it never crossed my mind to buy them both at once. That's why they pay you the big bucks, Frosty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjs Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 concerning 1/4 x 27 tpi taps: https://www.amazon.com/HSS-Right-Hand-Thread-Tap/dp/B008AT64P8 about $18.50 with the shipping and it says it is high speed steel Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.