Scrolling inside frame?

[will52100]

I'm building a rose trellis and want to add scroll work to the inside of the frame.  Trouble is, with a double scroll from 3/8" round I'm getting about 9 1/2" width, and I need 10 1/2"  It's a 4-1 scroll, I've done a couple of patterns in 3-1 but no dice.  Surely there is a formula or method for doing scrolls inside fixed rails.  I could do a large and small scroll, but I'm wanting the scroll work as reinforcement as well.  Basic design is two uprights, C shaped footprint vs complete square, with a  double arch between them.

 

Thanks

[Frosty]

Make it 1/2" oversize and let it spring open in the frame. It's MUCH easier to let the steel press itself into or onto the space you need it.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

He wants to know *how* to make it to a particular size.  I would suggest drawing it full scale on some cardboard (and make it a tad larger as Frosty suggests) And then measure the length of steel needed, I like to add a couple of inches "holding" tab to it and then forge to match your full scale drawing.  (and yes I end up with scorched cardboard a lot of times.)   Doing the design with pencil and cardboard makes it a lot easier to fiddle with things till you get something you like.  Going over the pencil line with a wide sharpie can give a more accurate view of what it will look like in steel

[will52100]

Thanks, so far if I do get it too fit it's going to be some combination of ratio's.  I was hoping there was an easier way of figuring for inside rails, but I'll keep drawing till I get what I'm after.

[ThomasPowers]

Well there are various computer cad systems that would probably do it for you; but I don't know how many have good spirals as I moved on from that job 25 years ago.

[will52100]

True, and I'm too far out of date on computers to screw with it.  I was hoping there'd be something simple like the way you do a 4-1 scroll as parts of a 90 deg. curve.

[Latticino]

Without using CAD, for a shortcut I would suggest taking an image of a scroll you like (like that below that I downloaded) and scaling it up or down to fit your frame width using a Xerox machine.  If you measure the original it is pretty easy to figure the scale factor to fit it into a final size.  Can even go a little oversized to be able to spring it into place as the others suggest.

[will52100]

Thanks, just kind of a pain trying to figure from scratch.  I'll get there though.

[John B]

I used to know an old guy who had a couple of large scrolls ( a pattern) and a bit of string, he would use a piece of sheet steel and mark off the width of panel he wanted to make the scrolls fit to, then he would place one of the scrolls over the area and rotate it until a portion of the scroll fitted to what looked ok. then he would mark it out and form his scrolls to suit, measuring the required lengths for blanks with his bit of non stretch string.

Scrolls in rose arches look fine when there are no plants up them, but when plants and foliage grow, not much is seen of the scrolls, And scrolls are more expensive to incorporate than straight bars, a point to take into consideration if price is a concern.

Good luck with the project

[will52100]

Thanks, price really isn't a big concern, this is a trellis for my mother, and it gives me a project to expand my skills as I've never done architectural iron work before.  And she's not that much of a gardener, most times there will be little if any roses growing up it.

I think I've got how to do it, just wish I had more room to lay out everything.

[matto]

The other problem with doing it in cad is when you put the hot scroll up to or on you screen to check it does not like it.  

[ThomasPowers]

You don't have the sapphire screen covers???

[will52100]

Funny, don't think any computer would last long in my shop, hot work or finishing area.

Anyway I finally got it, just took a little drawing and laying out in full size.

[Frosty]

Use power point to project it on the table, floor, wall, bed sheet, etc.

Transferring drawings to work surfaces, tables, floor, etc. is why I use graph paper so much. If a "customer" likes a concept sketch we can clean it up and I can take it to the shop and transfer it to whatever surface I'm going to use to build on. It allows you to scale up or down to virtually ANY "size." ( I wrote "scale" but using the same word for more than one meaning in the same sentence can be confusing.

Anyway, that's my advice. Use power point or graph paper and transfer it using basic Alphaneumeric map coordinate method. For the GPS "Siri will talk you there folk." You label the vertical grid lines ABCD.. and the horizontal grid lines 1234... . Position E6 means you follow line E AND line 6 where they intersect is E6. How you label horiz/vert is up to you though I do recommend you use the same system as maps to avoid confusion. KISS rules.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Nobody Special]

Dang it, you beat me to the projection AND the grid method? Well now I feel useless.  Although, I was gonna say that the old overhead projectors like they used to used for school paperwork worked great for that...now I'm the one that looks old next you zany kids with your iphones and your powerpoint...   We used to do that in theater long before I picked up the hammer.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Nobody Special
cain't spell

[Frosty]

I gotta beat somebody to something once in a while and the vote said it was your turn. You could come up with the cartography term for the grid coordinate system, I blanked on that.

The only problem with using an overhead projector is finding one, I think they're selling as antiques.

Frosty The Lucky.

[olfart]

If you can find a 35mm (film) slide of scrollwork you like, you can put the slide in the back of the camera with a strong light behind it and use the camera as a projector.

 

[will52100]

What I wound up doing is making a pattern from poster paper and cut out the thickness of the bar to form a stencil.  I used that to line up between where I wanted and made a master pattern, then another scroll forming tool to match.  Kind of a long way around to get it done, but now I can turn the other 19 scrolls out pretty easy.

[Hexus]

I draw the size of box out on the shop floor in soapstone. Then do several boxes of different scrollwork. Track out the soapstone scroll with a piece of string, then measure. Build your first one and mark the size (or build the inside of the scroll-arch for each end if you are doing a jig for them). You'll always be close (not necessarily dead on), but then you can add or subtract a bit by adding a smidge into one of the scroll-ends (by hammering it slightly) or taking a smidge out (with a scroll wrench) to finesse the size to fit perfect.

 

[will52100]

Finally got done with it, was trying to figure out what would look good on the wide sections and finally went with large C scrolls.  Just need to sand blast and paint, will probably do that in a few days when the humidity drops somewhere below 99%.

Anyway, what I did was draw a box on a piece of sheet metal and used my stencil to rotate until it touched the confines then marked that out and did the other side and measured the length needed.  I played around with a string and wire, but finally just made a scroll measuring tool, just a 2 1/2" pizza cutter style tool with a hole in it and used it to measure the scrolls with.  I did have to make a couple to get the length just rite, wound up being 96 1/2" long of 3/8 round stock.  C scrolls were only 65 1/2" long.  Once all the figuring out how and what I wanted to do, the actual construction didn't take that long.

I'll post some pics once I get it painted.

[Hexus]

sounds great will! I'd like to see them.

[will52100]

I posted pics over in "members projects", I tried to post a link, but for some reason couldn't get it to work.