Hay budden anvil construction

[Emower]

Question about how hay budden were made. The other day I contributed a small chip on the step of the anvil. A little piece of me died as I did that, but as I got to looking at the chip and others, it appears as if there is a thin skin of hardened metal on top of the main body. My anvil was part of the later models that were forged from  a solid piece of steel, as I understand it. So how was the anvil hardened? Is his skin a case hardening? Work hardening? Just curious. Sorry for the pictures, there is no way to rotate.

[SReynolds]

You mean it's solid steel as opposed to wrought w/a 1/4" steel face?

I would like to understand how an anvil was constructed. Folks ask me that who take the town tour. I tell them the blacksmith made everything from iron or steel. Then someone asks "even the anvil"

[Emower]

From what I understand hay buddens after a certain point (1920's-ish) were a two piece construction, a wrought base with the whole top half being high quality steel, welded on to the base. There was no top plate that was welded on. I just don't know how they were hardened on the top. From looking at the chips the hardened layer seems really thin. Someone with more knowledge then I might be able to enlighten us.

[jerryt]

I  am also very interested in this because I do not understand the construction of the new anvil I got this week which is suspected to be a HB.

Jerry

Edited April 4, 2016 by jerryt
To add pics

[arkie]

Check the foot under the horn for a serial number.  If it is indeed a Hay Budden, you can find the date of manufacture and type of manufacture by consulting Postman's Anvils in America.

[ThomasPowers]

Solid high carbon steel top sections are only hardened to a certain depth---prevents the anvil from breaking.  If you really want to learn about how anvils were made and you live in the USA go to your local public library and ILL "Anvils in America" by Richard Postman and read it!  Let me give you a hint: a couple of posts by random people on a web site does not take the place of 550 pages written by an expert.

[FoxFire]

That is most certainly a Hay and it does look to the later 2 piece construction. The slender waist (with the almost straight sides under the horn and heel) and well defined base/feet are giveaways. There should be 3 numbers stamped in to the far side up by the start of the heel.  

Just realized that I was responding to jerryt's post in Emower's thread...

[jerryt]

Thanks all for responding.  Didn't mean to hijack Emower's thread.

Jerry

[ThomasPowers]

Hijacking threads is rather "par for the course..."  Why I've heard tell that Frosty is a vermicious knid!!!!!

[Emower]

I am struggling to word this so that it doesnt sound whiny or aggressive. I would like to meet you Thomas and talk and visit your shop so I dont want to make any enemies here. I know what hardening is. I know how it is done in many cases, I even know how these anvils were constructed. I have done some footwork What I dont know is how these specific anvils were hardened. I am aware of Postmans book, the libraries in my area do not have it, and for some reason wont get it on ILL. Its small town New Mexico, par for the course. I dont feel like spending $50 bucks to answer a very specific, very narrow question, and gambling whether the book has the answer. Does it have the answer? If it does and you feel morally obligated not to tell me because it is in a book, fine. I can rest easy knowing where to find the answer when I visit Albuquerque or Las Cruces next. I was hoping you or some other people with a lot of knowledge would know the answer and could tell me. I dont view you as some random people on a website. I agree that the expertly written book is best, but I dont have access to it.

I am as tired as the next guy of all the dumb questions that could be answered if the asker would do the most basic of footwork. They seem to crop up with amazing frequency. I agree that my generation seems to want to just have all the answers handed to us on a platter with no effort other than a few keystrokes on our part. I analyzed this question before I posted. Is it an interesting question? Can I answer it myself with some research? I thought it was an ok question and I could not answer it to satisfaction without spending money on a book that may or may not have the answer. On this forum can we follow Thumpers Mom's adage? "If you cant say somethin nice, dont say nuthin at all."

[ThomasPowers]

You could of course turn the anvil on it's side and polish a swath and try the ball bearing test every 1.4" down the side and determine how far the hardening goes.  

Some of these questions are quite hard to answer definitively as they can differ for every anvil!  Was your anvil quenched in the summer or dead of winter---which could make a  difference for example.  What year it was made will change the answer as the production methods changed over time.  Can you tell us if your anvil has been in a structure fire and was de-tempered or even de tempered and then reheat treated either professionally or by a smith "by guess and by golly?"

Can you explain why this is important?  I was using anvils before Postman wrote his book (actually I once offered to buy his notes as it was looking like he wasn't going to get it published at one time...) and back then we divided anvils into two basic groups: "good anvils" and "no good" anvils; many folks didn't give a hoot on if it was a PW or a HB or a Mousehole or if it was an old one with a multi piece face or a newer one with a single piece face or an even newer one with the top part of the anvil 1 single piece.and you know they worked just fine...(some preferred one over the other much like folks debate brands of pickups to this day.)

Anvils that have the hardened face ground or milled would sometimes show by the reduction in step to the cutting plate---evidence of the cutting plate being milled or ground. This was considered a warning sign that this might have happened and was being covered up---as is the cutting plate being slanted with the end near the horn higher than the end towards the face.

[Bowland]

18 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Solid high carbon steel top sections are only hardened to a certain depth---prevents the anvil from breaking.  If you really want to learn about how anvils were made and you live in the USA go to your local public library and ILL "Anvils in America" by Richard Postman and read it!  Let me give you a hint: a couple of posts by random people on a web site does not take the place of 550 pages written by an expert.

There should be a like button for posts like this. So true 

[jerryt]

Went to my library today and requested ILL of Postman's book.  Remote little library...we shall see.

Jerry

[arkie]

22 minutes ago, jerryt said:

Went to my library today and requested ILL of Postman's book.  Remote little library...we shall see.

Jerry

Jerry, interesting story about Postman's book.  My son gave me a copy for Christmas one year.  He overheard me say that "...all I wanted was to see when and how my Hay Budden anvil was made".  Well, that turned out to be wrong.  After going through Postman's book, I became immersed in it.  I have read that book, front to back more than once, finding out things about anvils I missed the first time reading.  It is fascinating reading, and it came with Postman's other book, Mousehole Forge.

Now, there's another book I couldn't put down.  I'm no history buff, but reading cover to cover about the history and manufacture of the old Mousehole anvils was very enlightening and entertaining.  Making those old anvils was extremely hard and gruelling work.  Makes one appreciate the older anvils we own these days.

[ThomasPowers]

Sorry Jerry but no libraries in VA are "remote" by New Mexico standards and I've lived in both states!

Glenwood is in Catron County which is 17964 sq miles and as the 2010 census 3725 people for 0.2 people per sq mile (and only the third least populous county in NM)  Nice catwalk out there!

Highland county in VA, the least populous, had 2321 people in the 2010 census and 425.9 sq miles giving about 5.6 people per square mile 

Anyway I've had great luck ILL'ing stuff from Socorro public library which is a good sized town of about 10000 people when the university is in session... There were even able to source a copy of "The Metallography of Early Ferrous Edge Tools and Edged Weapons" Tylecote and Gilmour which was not an easy find; though the BAR was talking of re-issuing it last I heard.

[ThomasPowers]

Getting back to the original picture I'd *guess* it was a function of work hardening as you see the thin layer delamination on items heavily used---like RR track at times.

[AnBello]

I have personally seen that exact same effect in an old, small hammer. It was used (and abused) to hit stone, bricks, cold metal and anything you can think of for a small house hammer. I can't take pictures, because just last week I grinded it to have a more even surface, but it looked exactly like that, as if a VERY thin layer got "separated/delaminated" from the rest.

Taking into account that it was a hammer and not an anvil, and showed the same effect, I would say that it is not exclusive to anvils, so anvil construction should be a bit less relevant for this subject.

Also, as this is a very small cross peen hammer (2cm square face, 9cm total metal length, I would gess about 8oz), I doubt case hardening or differential hardening was applied (I might be wrong). So, my guess would be that this effect is related to the striking nature of the work involved, the same as in an anvil. Probably work hardening?

 

Of course, that's just speculation. I'm sorry for being long winded, it's in my nature.

[jerryt]

Arkie and Tom (or do you  prefer Thomas?)

Thanks for your comments.  Hopefully the library will produce and I'll likely wind up buying the book in the end.  Will check on an update before I buy.

Jerry

[ThomasPowers]

If you are talking to me my name is Thomas; I don't know who Tom is.

[jerryt]

Yes, I will use Thomas.  Thanks.

Jerry

[notownkid]

On ‎4‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 9:33 PM, ThomasPowers said:

a couple of posts by random people on a web site does not take the place of 550 pages written by an expert.

Sooooo True!

 

11 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

my name is Thomas; I don't know who Tom is

He is the guy with the buddy named Jerry on TV

[ironmutt]

not gunna have much luck finding AIA in a libary  from personel experience my local has access to the index of every libary in illinios and the only one that had it was the school libary at carbondale  but i have an awsome mom inlaw i mentioned it one day while at a book store and 2 months later got it for xmas its only like 65 on amzon right now i would just go for it 

[01tundra]

Just a side question, I keep hearing about HB's "later" 2-piece design. 

My 155 HB was manufactuered in 1895 (confirmed) and I always assumed it was a two piece design because of the large line across the top of the waist that I assumed was where it was welded together, but now I'm wondering if it was just rough casting marks because the manufacturing date doesn't seem to coincide with the shift to two piece design?

[ThomasPowers]

London Pattern Anvils commonly had a forge weld at the waist predating the use of cast tops/bottom by a century or two and still being used afterwards---though some manufacturers started arc welding the waist join in more modern times.

[01tundra]

So does this that mine is likely a 2-piece and that HB started doing this well before the 1920's (as in 1895)?