notownkid Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 These are Punch Presses 1st is a smaller one 2nd is one of the largest in the shop I helped clean out a few yrs. ago, 2 3 show the press being stripped for scrap the frame was cracked and had worked till the shop closed but nobody would buy. 3rd is the crankshaft out of the machine. These were run by 3 phase electric motors and belts. I think 2 was a 50 ton press. We had to strip every part we could get off so we could move it to the scrap bin. Somebody asked about punch presses Forklift operator is my brother in law and had owned the shop & machines for 40+ yrs. there had been 25 machines wnen we started the clean out. 8 were scrapped Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanderson Iron Posted March 9, 2016 Author Share Posted March 9, 2016 There you go, Jumbojack, the first picture above is an OBI. See how the whole machine can be rocked to different angles? The flywheel's on the side with a crank in the middle, instead of like mine which has the flywheel on the back and the crank on the end towards you. Thanks for showing those, notownkid. It sure is a shame any were scrapped. Can you imagine if eight hammers had been scrapped? People's cries would still be echoing. Had those been power hammers, they'd have all sold no matter the condition, and folks would have been declaring that they "saved" them and so on and so forth. Unfortunately, hardly any blacksmiths know what one of these can do, which is a mystery to me, because they've been around for as long as hammers. (The one I use probably predates the Little Giant company.) Why there's a flypress movement and no toggle press movement, I just don't understand. Joel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 The earliest european powerhammer I have seen good documentation on dates to the 900's; I am agog to find out the antecedents of the press---probably an outgrowth of the presses for making wine and olive oil I'd guess and so might predate the powerhammer where the burly guys with sledges would work fine for smithing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanderson Iron Posted March 9, 2016 Author Share Posted March 9, 2016 In my statement I was referring to the late 19th century power hammers which are commonly available and are still in use today. Of course trip hammers predate these, but those are barely relevant to today's smith. My point was that although power hammers are accepted and pursued by blacksmiths, the toggle presses, which are equal in both an historical and a functional context, are overlooked and ignored. Ignorance or trend? Having watched other trends over the last 30 years, like the air hammer and the fly press, my guess is that it's both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 I think part of it may be the finicky nature of the press; put a piece under the powerhammer that's a 1/4" too thick and you may not notice it; put one in certain types of press and you are risking life and limb. The rise in the use of hydraulic presses in smithing may herald more people willing to experiment with various types of presses as well as the decline in industry in the USA putting more of them on the market at scrap rates. I would love to see more posted on "precision smithing" though I will probably be a "thickness of a worn shilling" smith. Your comment on designing pieces so they fit a number of different arrangements should be a sticky for a precision smithing thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 Greetings, Some view a Stradivarius violin as a wood box. In the right hands it can make beautiful music.. The same thing goes for what some view as obsolete machines. The fly press AKA a coining screw press /screw press in use in the 1400s for striking coins. Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Ah I can still hear the ticketa clack BOOM of the punch presses in Dad's shop. the smaller one was 24ton out of a line shop. He ran it on a 3phase motor and I learned to keep the flat belt on the pullies till they came up to speed early on. Heck, almost everything in his shop was line driven at one time. You had to be good with a stick to keep the belts on when starting. I'll have to see if my Sister has any pics of Dad's shop, I have a couple but none of the presses and CERTAINLY no pics of a 10yr old Me spinning. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanderson Iron Posted March 10, 2016 Author Share Posted March 10, 2016 Thomas, I think I understood you to imply that a toggle press is more for thin metal than thick metal, but I may have interpreted your "worn shilling" sentence wrong. I've used mine for any thickness, from 16 gauge up to 2 inches thick. Just depends on what I'm doing. I showed pictures of embossing and sheering thin stuff because that's what the try press is for, which started this thread. I use my toggle press for lining, texturing (both sides simultaneously if I want to), off-setting, slitting holes in round, flat or any stock prior to drifting, bending, riveting and so on. However, you're right--that should be another thread. Maybe I'll start one. Coining with a fly press sounds interesting, Jim, and the fifteenth century is back a ways. I don't see why the press and the hammer wouldn't have developed together. They're so obviously suited to similar things. I'm no historian though. Maybe someone here has pictures of old presses. Are there some shown in Diderot's? I know your not THAT old, Frosty, but it'd sure be nice if your sister does find some of your dad's shop that you could share. Joel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Yes totally misinterpreted. My comment was referring to some types of presses that require a full stroke to complete otherwise they can jam BDC or even break their castings rather catastrophically. (if your press is set for 16 gauge, what happens if you put a piece of 2" in it?) Of course there are other types of press that do not have this issue. As for the "thickness of a worn shilling" it was referring to the tolerance achieved on early steam engine cylinders original quote by James Watt. As a smith I'm probably at least that good as the early cylinder makers were. Da Vinci drew a press for coining around 1500 and "the History of the Coin Press" under coinbooks.org says In 1506 an Italian, Donato Bramante (inspired by a fruit press) built a screw press but only did blanking on it. In 1550 Max Schwab of Augusburg built a workable screw press which could both blank and strike, and made other equipment (as rolling mills to roll metal strips for blanking). So the oil or wine press does seem to be a possible "role model"---according to this author. I coin with my screw press and have a friend who mints using screw and knuckle presses---he has the permission to mint Game of Thrones and Lord of the Rings coins... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanderson Iron Posted March 10, 2016 Author Share Posted March 10, 2016 Okay, I get it now, Thomas. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notownkid Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 On 3/9/2016 at 8:56 AM, Sanderson Iron said: It sure is a shame any were scrapped. Can you imagine if eight hammers had been scrapped? People's cries would still be echoing. Had those been power hammers, they'd have all sold no matter We scrapped 40,002 lbs of machines, finished products and tooling. I've seen a couple of these smaller presses in Blacksmith shops but one of them wouldn't take another one for free!! I should have saved one on hind sight but didn't. everything going overseas and plastic just put this business out. Some machines went on to other shops. It was spooky going in as everything was setting just like the night they had left 2 yrs. before. Could have had production running in 1 hr. if there were any buyers for the production. Steel running into the back of some machines, product in the bins, Even empty lunch bags setting in the break area. 90 days later it was cleaned to the walls fork lift was the last to leave. Downfall of American Manufacturing to say nothing of the American Dream. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 I got to go to a "Ghost Machineshop Auction" once. One day full production then that night one of the partners had a heart attack and died and it was never opened again. 25 years later the estate finally was settled and they held an auction---well the roof failed and everything had been rained on---standing water on the floor. All the state of the art machine tools were pretty much ruined "museum pieces"---punched tape drives. Leftovers in the fridge too. I picked up a postvise and a vise for a shaper, small only 40 pounds, that I use on my drill press. Both were above the tide in "dry" areas. If they had kept the roof on there was probably over 100K even with the old machines as it was scrap metal for all the big machines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanderson Iron Posted March 10, 2016 Author Share Posted March 10, 2016 That is so sad. Unbelievable what has happened. Why, why, why? The work these machines can do would stagger most smiths in America today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 Joel, love your shop and how you bring these old machines to life again. I hate browsing through your website because all the photos make my tool addiction flare up something fierce. I think the big problem with the presses and such not being seen as valuable tools for a lot of smiths simply that they don't get any exposure. As long as I've been forging iron, I have never had a chance to see machines like yours in action. Nobody's talking about them on the internet. You don't see videos of them running on youtube. How can we expect folks to understand and want to use things that they really don't have a basic understanding of? Just reading through your description of what you do with them, I now see them in a new light. I don't know if I'll ever run across one for sale, or have the room/money to put it to work, but you've gone a long way towards opening some eyes with a single internet post. We need more of that. PS: If you're open to adopting, I'm available as long as I get to play in the shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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