How to add a horn to this ASO

[Quench.]

Hi, first post.  I've read a lot on IFI and done a number of searches since joining.  Need a different idea...

I found a 120lb chunk of steel at a recycle place.  Some kind of construction bracket?  It has a nice surface and the top is 2" thick. I radiused a few edges.  It used to have a 3" round hole in the top.  I decided I wanted a hardy hole, so with some advice from the folks on a well known welding forum, I cut 1" square holes in two pieces of 3/8" plate, sandwiched them, and welded them into the hole.  So that part is only 3/4" thick.

I have a coal forge I built from a rusted out water pressure tank and a Silverado brake drum.  Little better than a rivet forge but useful.  Used it yesterday for the first extended time period (not just a "test run"), and realized quickly I would really like a horn.

I'm looking for a decent anvil at a reasonable price (ha).  Also rather not spend a lot while I am testing out this hobby.  In the mean time, I plan to use this ASO of mine.  I would like to add a horn to it.

There are cone hardy tools, and if they would stay in place and not rattle about, I expect that would work.  But I used one in a class and it was tricky.  Not like a horn.  More like just for truing up.

I found a "viking anvil" online.  It has a stake on it.  Don't know if it would fit in the 1" hardy hole.  It is cast, but no other information about it on the company's website.  I think he casts them himself.  I expect I can't mention the company, but if you search for "viking anvil" and go to the last post on the blade smith forum thread that comes up, you'll find it.  Weighs 19 lbs.  I guess that is better than a hardy hole cone for my purposes.  Might be heavy enough...  Can't weld it in place or I lose my hardy hole.  Has anyone any experience with this one?

Been looking for a while for something suitable at the recycle yard.  Nothing yet.  A blacksmith I met here mentioned forging a sledge hammer head into a horn.  Maybe, if I could hold it in place (no), and difficult on my soft iron ASO.

I can make small bicks from 1" round stock, but that will rattle around, too.  I really want something more like a horn.  Best idea might be patience.

Other ideas?

-Q

[DSW]

In some ways you already have a "horn" tip that "anvil" over and use the rounded end of your shape to help draw out stock. You can also use the pipe base to do light work like bending.

 

The real question is "what do you want to do with your horn?" There are plenty of ways to draw out stock quickly using what you have, either working off an edge, or turning your block with the rounded end up. If you want to do bending, you can always make up a bending fork or use various dies as a form and bend around them.

[Quench.]

I guess, If I had a "normal" anvil, I would not have to answer the question about what I want to do with the horn.

It is not easy to answer.  For what I made yesterday, a 1 1/4" black iron pipe was almost the right size.  I had my "anvil" on a stack of bricks, and I tried to hold the pipe on the base of the anvil with my foot, while I used it to form the loop on the rake.  It sort of worked.  Then I wanted to make the loop smaller.  I used needle nose pliers and made it look worse.

For the loops on the adjustable "stock support" on the side of my forge (idea from the book A Blacksmithing Primer), I used a T-fitting for 2" iron pipe.  It was larger than I wanted but all I had at the time that wouldn't start on fire.  I had to put that in my bench vise because I had no other way of holding it in place.

In the class I took at the Campbell Folk School, I made a bell from an O2 tank.  The bell clanger and supports had several loops of different sizes and U shapes.

So you see, I don't have any one particular thing in mind.

Yes, the pipe support forming the center of my "anvil" can be used for large loops, as can the round edge of the top.  But they are only one large size, and moving the anvil (flipping it) is not something I can do once it's fastened down to the stand I will be building.  I have considered grinding down the top and bottom edges of the top plate at the rear (opposite the hardy), and attempting to taper them such that I had a range of sizes to use, but the utility would be limited by the plate itself (and reduce mass in the area which gets the hardest blows.)  I rejected that idea.

The only things I've come up with (besides purchasing a cone for the hardy hole--which isn't steady, as I said), is some contraption similar to what you mentioned to me on the welding forum, but with a number of sizes of rounds, all lined up together and welded onto a piece of angle, then with a hardy post on the bottom.  So I would have a range of sizes, but again, limited to only one section of a loop (and also not well secured in the hardy hole).  And yesterday I found that cast viking anvil from vause, which almost looks like it could be made to work in the hardy hole.  I guess I'll send them a note and get more details.  Sure seems like I should be able to find something at the recycle yard that would work, since my goal has been to make most of this from scrap.  Imagination may be lacking.

-Q

[Charles R. Stevens]

The "London pattern anvil" is only about two centuries old, for at least ten centuries before that horns were rare and a bick was used.

we usualy refer to a London pattern shaped lump of unsuitable material as an "anvil shaped object" and a solid lump of usable steel as an anvil. 

Simply making a bick to fit the hardy hole will get you in business, as would a stump mounted bick or a stake 

[Jim Coke]

Greetings Quench,

Charles and DSW have suggested ideas for you .. I will just add an alternative suggestion to lock bricks to your set up . A simple hoop welded to a few bricks with a bottom wedge will work well . I have used this system for years with great success. Keep on thinking and you will do well. 

Forge on and make beautiful things

Jim

[House of D]

Jim,

I'll be sending that last hold down to the R&D dept...Ripoff and Duplicate! Good idea.

D

[Quench.]

1 hour ago, Jim Coke said:

I will just add an alternative suggestion to lock bricks to your set up . A simple hoop welded to a few bricks with a bottom wedge will work well . I have used this system for years with great success. Keep on thinking and you will do well. 

I think I see.  U-shaped post from the top, then tap a wedge inside the U, under the anvil, to spread the U and lock it into the hole.  And my welding and the U-shaped post don't have to be perfect (and they won't be).  Oh that is a really, really good idea.  Now the hardy tools like a bick can be more useful because they are well-fixed in place.  Awesome.  Thank you!

-Q

[Charles R. Stevens]

Dang it Jim! You have good ideas.

[DSW]

Stupid disappearing post bug again!

 

My favorite bending tool is my Versa Jig from Yesteryear Forge. Lots of different center disks to use as jigs and plenty of holes in the base so you can match the bending pin to the stock being used. The jig also comes with a 1/2" socket adapter to increase the number of different sizes should you need a certain exact diameter to work with. Great tool and money well spent.

 

I have a 12" long 3" dia pin from a piece of heavy equipment that I plan to eventually draw out and forge down to make a nice free standing bick, once I can arrange some time on some ones power hammer. I've also seen horns made for ASO's from round stock by grinding or turning on a lathe, if you happen to have access to one. Some of the off center turned ones I've seen are really nice.

[Quench.]

No access to anything power yet.  Maybe sometime this spring though.  I will join the local ABANA and meet a few more folks.

I doubt my forge could heat up something as large as a 3" round.  I know where to find one of those; just no way to form it.  But I have some good ideas now, and Jim's idea for anchoring hardy hole tools opens up that direction.

Versa Jig looks great, as does G2.  But this is only a hobby and a new one at that for me.  I might make guillotine tool just for grins and welding practice, but its kind of hard to justify buying tools right now.  (Even an anvil, unless I get a good buy so it can hold its value.)

From a water pressure tank.  The anvil is just sitting on my brick rocket stove while I make the wood stand for it.  Maybe I will post a thread with forge construction pics, but this isn't much different from other barrel-type forges.

[Daswulf]

I like the water heater tank forge. The door on it for the ash dump is neat but any real reason for it? 

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Daswulf, that is where you warm your lunch up....

 

[Daswulf]

 good one BigGun. 

[Quench.]

1 hour ago, Daswulf said:

I like the water heater tank forge. The door on it for the ash dump is neat but any real reason for it? 

It was a rusted out water pressure tank.  Terrific find at the metal scrap yard.  I was actually looking for 1/4" plate to make a square/flat forge.  Couldn't find any, but this was sitting there, looking lonely.  It had a concave bottom (which is now the top) and a convex top (which I cut off).  I'm trying to find a good use for the cutoff.  Rain lid, maybe.

The door?  Over-design?   But really, I wanted the forge to be portable.  I don't have a dedicated place for it.  Plus, I am not a very big human, and no longer very young.  The brake drum plus 2" iron piping weighs up.  I wanted to be able to take it apart easily.  When I remove the blower side air inlet pipe, and try to reattach it, getting the threads lined up with the T inside the tank is a pain without a way to see what I'm doing.  So that's part of the reason for the door, and the whole reason why the hinges are on the right.

The other reason for the door was to get access to the ash dump lever, and to make it easy to remove the ash tray.  I thought about bringing the lever to the outside of the tank, but it would be used only some of the time, and in the way most of the time.  I got the ash tray at the recycle place, too.  It was a perfect fit.  I bought two of three piping pieces, the two floor flanges, and the T joint online at the big A.  Anvil brand, cheaper than local big box, and Made in USA, baby!  The rest came from scrap.

While I'm at it...   Don't look too hard at the slanted plates in the fire pot.  They used to fit well, when the fire pot had a taller lip.  But the taller lip made the coal a real pain to rake in.  So yesterday I cut off the rest of the lip.  But now of course I will need to redo my plates, which is kind of a bummer since I cut and welded them to fit the drum contour.

This question is coming next, so I'll answer it now:  the plates are removable so I can have a larger fire if I need one.  I read posts from you guys on refractory linings and I just decided that was too much trouble and would just make it that much heavier.  Also didn't seem to be any agreement about whether refractory linings were good or bad.  When in doubt, leave it out.

Sorry the second photo is so dark.  I used a flashlight but the tank is all painted black, hopefully to stop the rusting.  I wonder if these photos are too large and will use up all my allowed space?

Scrambler, I don't know what that anvil used to be.  When I found it, the guy told me he originally had 12 of them and I got the last one.  He said the blacksmithing guys use them as anvils (makes sense).  It's 120lbs, and has beautiful, multi-pass welds.  Rings like crazy.  Magnet on the end helps a LOT.  Doesn't rebound much.  I only had one smithing class, but I sure can tell the difference between a nice anvil and this one.  But I'm not a blacksmith. This is fine for now.

Thank you again for all the good advice (even before I posted). Tons of great info.

-Q

[Quench.]

I found something which might work as a "horn tool" (maybe go in the hardy hole) and sent an email off for more information from the maker.

The reply came back that the tool is cast in ductile iron, has a Rockwell hardness of 52 and can work harden to 55.  And it is not otherwise hardened.  And it will need some dressing, which I figure should be no biggie.

I did some reading and searching, since I don't have any good feel for what 52 is.  I know that my mild steel chunk will dent easily with a hammer. But it doesn't seem to dent when I hammer on hot metal (even dull red).  And I think the hardness of my mild steel chunk is lower than 52.

I also read some about "ductile iron," and I see that some decent anvils are even made of this stuff.  And their hardness is roughly in this range.

So the questions:

-- I will have to do some filing or grinding-maybe a lot of it--to  make this fit into my hardy hole.  Is 52 very hard to file or grind or should not be a concern?

-- If this is good enough material to use for some anvils, can I assume it would at least be a good material to use as a horn?

-- What is required to make something work harden?  Does it need to deform (dent)?  Would the light hammering one might do on an anvil horn cause it to work harden or would it realistically take a lifetime for that to happen?   Should I even care about this?

I would post a link to the object, but I think it might not be allowed since it is a company.

thanks!

-Q

[ThomasPowers]

I prefer steel to any type of cast iron for impact tooling.  When I need to work large stock I arrange to use another smith's set up and powerhammers so to make a bickiron I took the head of a rr spike driving sledge and forged a shaft out of 2.5" sq stock---now about 36" long.  I foged one end into a spike and the other end into a tenon and riveted the head on the tenon end.  I have a short fat stump the spike end goes in.