teenylittlemetalguy Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 For the last couple years I have been researching a way to forge weld leaf springs because I was told I could not and I am hard headed... all my results left me empty handed till now. I want to share this info with you, my brothers. If you only use known steels I think this would apply to 5160 as well. Examples: attached are a couple photos to show test welds. In one you will see a Faggot weld that has been forged in line with the long axis of the weld to test the strength (over one inch wide hammered down to 3/16”) with no weld failure. the one you will see most of is the loop I forged and then cut to prove its strength. bent the ends around easily with no delam, in fact I think you will find that Leaf spring welds nicer than most mild steel. Why it works: I think most of you would agree the issue with 5160 or leaf spring is the small amount of chromium content they add. Chromium Oxide forms upon heating and is very stable and unaffected even at high temps by most acids and common fluxes. to get around this I make sure I am running my gas burner in a reducing range and the real secret is to add finely ground real charcoal to my borax (50/50 mix by volume will work). It needs to be nearly dust to work. if you leave it the size of sand it will likely fail. Carbon will reduce the Chromium Oxide back to Chromium and the flux can wash it out of the way. I have been calling this Alaska flux. I am interested in someone trying it with a known 5160, I don’t have any on hand to try.if you can please let me know what you think. If you are one that has issues with welding mild steel in a gas forge you should give this a try, you will be very pleased. sorry about picture quality. the crud on the bottom of this is some left over slag from the plasma cut on the leaf spring. I do not close all the way as I want to be sure the flux covers the whole face of the weld. it is blurry but there is a scarf under the fuzz of the flux. hoop before cutting close up on the open hoop. you can see the line, it did not split down this far, I left it only a short weld to really show it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 A number of folks are interested in your "Alaska" flux. This project is a good one to try it out on.! Adding a sliver of 1018 works but is not always easy to do the weld. Next go round I will try it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenylittlemetalguy Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 44 minutes ago, Charlotte said: A number of folks are interested in your "Alaska" flux. This project is a good one to try it out on.! Adding a sliver of 1018 works but is not always easy to do the weld. Next go round I will try it. thank you. the fact that you could weld leaf spring to mild is what made me question the whole problem in the first place. Iron itself is reducing like carbon is and that is why it works. let me know what you think of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 However it sounds like a guess as to why it works presented as a fact. (the Archaeological Metallurgy mailing list is discussing a similar thing wrt to granulation of gold; the process seems to work but everyone doubts it's because of the reason originally given) Or for a smithing example "edge packing" of old steels it does help but not because it's making it more dense; but because it refines the grain---which nowadays we can do a better job through thermal cycling of modern alloys... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Many tool steels have chrome. The nearly half of a percent of chrome in 5160 is no where near enough to have the protective oxide coating of stainless, and we forge weld stainless. explain that one? your facts are not proven connected to the stated result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Country Forger Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Thank you for sharing this! I have some projects coming up that may be a lot easier if I can weld spring steel and this provides a great way to approach that with a couple great tools to do so that are well within my means. As for the 'curmudgeons', the author never claims that chrome is absolutely the reason for the difficulty, and not only do you fail to provide any evidence for your claims, you fail to offer any alternative (to reason or method) while issuing personal criticism of the author. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I have always thought the level of manganese coupled with a similar amount of chrome was the cause of the problem in forge welding. Evidence ? Not here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenylittlemetalguy Posted December 1, 2015 Author Share Posted December 1, 2015 Thomas and Steve, sorry if this was not the technical document you would have preferred. but since no one has documented a way of doing this before you may have to live with my best guesses based on my reading and my trials. I suggest instead of just being armchair quarterbacks you get out there and try it. then maybe you could add some constructive criticism and help us all out. go try it, it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Arm chair ????? I posted I have forge welded 5160 no problem, and so have many smiths. I also posted how I have done it. I made no personal attacks but I see you have. Perhaps you can take some time and read what Thomas and I have posted in the past since you wont be able to post for a while, at least until you learn some manners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Country Forger Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6743 Just from a random source... after 10 seconds of searching on the steel mentioned. "AISI 5160 alloy steel has poor welding property owing to its high chromium and carbon content." Who could have guessed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 There is a difference in posting: "I tried this and it works" and posting "I tried this and it works because" and giving a guess at why it worked without any solid backing. Now if you had posted "I wonder if it works through the surface reduction of any chromium oxides by the charcoal?" Do you know that chromium oxides will reduce with charcoal at forge welding temps? I don't and I started forge welding back in 1984 and have welded a lot of odd things over the years...I admit not as many as Billy Merritt who is rumored to have forge welded the break of day to a random though once... We're trying to reduce the amount of bad info on blacksmithing---look what happened when Paw Paw Wilson gave a guess as to why so many Southern anvils were hornless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Country Forger Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I would like to point out he said (since he cannot post): "I think most of you would agree the issue with 5160 or leaf spring is the small amount of chromium content they add" You don't agree... but he never said "this is the reason" and came to his solution based on this premise. By misrepresenting what was said and providing no support for your theory (that chromium isn't the cause of difficulty?) you may (or not) have protected the world from bad information (again, no proof here), but you certainly suppressed a line of thought and experimentation that was producing results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenylittlemetalguy Posted December 1, 2015 Author Share Posted December 1, 2015 I apologize for insulting anyone, arm chair was uncalled for, I know you do a lot for the forum Steve. I am just so frustrated because I worked 2 years to make this happen and my results were questioned because I don't have any documents to back up my claims, instead of people trying it. I am not a scientist and I don't pretend to be one, I am an avid hobby blacksmith, surely you can take my opinions with a grain of salt? here is a link to a reference of carbon reducing chromium oxide. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium(III)_oxide I honestly do not care why it works. I care that it does work and that some people here may want that info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Maybe my chem is rustier that I thought but I don't see in the cited article any direct reduction of Cr2 O? any numbers and carbon. Carbon is mentioned in reduction with chlorine to prepare the chloride. In times past I've played with the oxide messing about with ceramics. I respect that your formula can works just not the way you suspect it does. I really believe that the carbon + the borax may help solvate the manganese and chromium oxides and eliminate the formation of additional oxides to permit fusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 I would assume the carbon is helping to keep a reducing environment for the weld. Waki-pedia if not known for high credibility for primary resources either, but great for a fast start to researching. We have covered that already moving along, 5160 is a little less than 3/4 % chrome and 0.60 carbon neither are anywhere near high, so those statements are way off to start. but tool steels, including 5160 do not weld the same as mild steels do, and the referenced chart was referring to mechanical welding, very few ever point toward forge welding. see ASM international. I was not saying you didnt find a way that works, I was stating your assumptions as to why they worked need factual supporting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenylittlemetalguy Posted December 2, 2015 Author Share Posted December 2, 2015 36 minutes ago, Charlotte said: Maybe my chem is rustier that I thought but I don't see in the cited article any direct reduction of Cr2 O? any numbers and carbon. Carbon is mentioned in reduction with chlorine to prepare the chloride. In times past I've played with the oxide messing about with ceramics. I respect that your formula can works just not the way you suspect it does. I really believe that the carbon + the borax may help solvate the manganese and chromium oxides and eliminate the formation of additional oxides to permit fusion. funny that you missed it as I also missed it several times myself. the reference to the reduction is under the reaction paragraph. "When heated with finely divided carbon it can be reduced to chromium metal with release of carbon dioxide. " right or wrong wikipedia was enough to make me try it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Good; trying different things is how we progress (and gain scars sometimes---good for staying awake during boring meetings as you can catalog them mentally without looking too odd) However a simple "I think it works this way" can leave the door open for other interpretations than "it works because". I run into a lot of odd beliefs in medieval and renaissance works---not saying that something doesn't work; just not for the reason guessed. (Though Theophilus' method of softening rock crystal for carving I have not been able to replicate at all!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Good Morning, I don't want to pee on anyone's corn-flakes, BUT, isn't the Forge-Welding difficulty corrected by the angle and direction that the Tongue is sticking out?? Just sayin........... Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panday Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Huh, I didn't know there was an issue with forge welding leaf spring. Is it false/cold sticks (unsure the correct terminology) or wholesale failure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenylittlemetalguy Posted December 3, 2015 Author Share Posted December 3, 2015 it doesn't like to stick to itself at all, just kind of slides around instead sticking. very frustrating material to try and weld to itself. it welds fine to mild steel, just not itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panday Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Did not know that. I've only forge welded leaf a few times, but never had a problem getting it to stick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJergensen Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 It depends very much on the alloy. Last week, I folded a bit of leaf spring back on itself and got a weld with borax for flux using my induction heater. It could be 5160, but it was "junkyard steel" so I don't really know what it was. I've never tried welding known 5160 to 5160, but others report it is tricky and blame the chromium. Makes me suspect my leaf spring is not 5160. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 I think we're running head on into a real problem for a community that usually trades information anecdotally. We run into it all the time here and spend a lot of time and effort debunking craft myths some truly ancient. Often the effect is there but the term is so far off base as to be meaningless. "Edge packing" for example. I can accept edge packing as named as it applies to old wrought iron where forging the edge would drive more slag out and yield a stronger and in fact denser "edge." It's a meaningless term applied to modern steel though but it's still here with us and being used. Back on topic. Over the years I've been reading and hearing about automotive springs (which for a while were 5160 & 9260) being harder to weld to themselves than most steels. One of the most common "reasons" probably speculations, I've heard since the internet went public is the chrome content. Being as it's so generally accepted as the probable problem I never looked into it even to do comparisons with other, known, steels I just went with the supposition. Heck, I think I've probably told Tristan it's the chrome content lots of times I might be the cause of this little, . . . Thing. (That would be a pun in Danish, I'm sure I didn't have to explain for our Viking members.) If the observed difficulty forge welding automotive spring steel is NOT chrome content does anyone know what the problem is? I'm leaving my method and experience off this table, it works. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 L-6 welds to itself fairly easy and has close to the same amount of chrome 0.70-0.75 vs 5160s 0.65 i can forge weld A2 and D2 and 304 stainless into one billet, and these 3 all have much more chrome. I was not saying 5160 is just as easy to forge weld as mild, it is different than mild steel. Most people have experience with mild or simple steels and no others. I have to ask what steels can you forge weld? if never worked with other than simple steels, that explains a lot. Alloy steels I feel are the real issue, as they have to be handled in different ways than simple steels do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 I've only messed with SS a few times without success but I don't want to mess with things like Sal ammoniac. What are you using for flux with 304? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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